Vibration

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Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
I have noticed an engine vibrating which is getting progressively worse, still rideable but the thought of engine seizure a possibility I don’t want to push my luck.
It sounds normal at tickover, just the usual tractor noise  but at revs over 4000 there is a buzz that never used to be there, I can also feel it at low revs in a high gear when the engine is lugging.
The bike is a 1996 900 with just 22K miles on it, no work done other that the sprag clutch a couple of years ago necessitating engine out and strip for access.

Any ideas before I start to tear it down?

Thanks and regards
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Re: Vibration

Jason Hart
 HiI had an issue with the counter balancing shaft coming lose after about 60 thousand km after a sprag clutch replacement and tear down by the dealer.. It is a 1994 trident. Was caught in the middle of no where and rode home. I fixed the issue my self but the vibration must have done something in the tranny as 1st gear makes a lot of grinding noise.  Having worked on the bike for too long I've abandon the project to fix it for now. I'm currently riding a 2015 BMW R 1200R so not sure if and when I will be pulling out the engine to look for the issue.
Not sure if your issue is related …
Jason   
    On Saturday, August 3, 2019, 09:27:28 a.m. EDT, [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    
I have noticed an engine vibrating which is getting progressively worse, still rideable but the thought of engine seizure a possibility I don’t want to push my luck.
It sounds normal at tickover, just the usual tractor noise but at revs over 4000 there is a buzz that never used to be there, I can also feel it at low revs in a high gear when the engine is lugging.
The bike is a 1996 900 with just 22K miles on it, no work done other that the sprag clutch a couple of years ago necessitating engine out and strip for access.

Any ideas before I start to tear it down?

Thanks and regards
   
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Re: Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
Thanks Jason
I can check the balance shaft without stripping the engine, the gear is secured with a circlip right?
I doubt that it’s the cam chain, the feel is different but I have found the tension spring is 3mm short so have ordered one anyway and will try that first.

Regards
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Re: Vibration

Jim Miles
Pull the oil filter and cut it open with a razor blade. Make 2 cuts around
each end of the element. Cut all the way thru the element on both ends.
Then peal the element away from the metal core. Open it up like an
accordion. Look for meal.
I found a ton of metal in one of our members trophy once. In his case the
engine blew about 100 miles after discovery.
It might be an easy way to determine if something is self destructing
within.

Jim


On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 8:26 AM [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Thanks Jason
> I can check the balance shaft without stripping the engine, the gear is
> secured with a circlip right?
> I doubt that it’s the cam chain, the feel is different but I have found
> the tension spring is 3mm short so have ordered one anyway and will try
> that first.
>
> Regards
>
>
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Re: Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
Good idea Jim. I have already drained the oil and passed it through a fine mesh and found nothing so maybe attack the filter next.
Regards
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Re: Vibration

Jim Miles
Yep, if you’re starting to make metal you’ll find it within the filter
element. Not the oil.

My trophy had a high rpm vibration years ago. It was just enough to be
aggravating. Problem was corrected by adjusting valve shims to exact book
values.

Jim


On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 2:08 PM [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Good idea Jim. I have already drained the oil and passed it through a fine
> mesh and found nothing so maybe attack the filter next.
> Regards
>
>
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Re: Vibration

gandrews1228
In reply to this post by IVOR COLLINS
Hi Ivor,  Someone mentioned carb balancing, that might be the cause, but I have my doubts about it since the vibration is all thru the rev range.
 

 Another post talked about installing gel grips. Was that you? Did the handle bar end weights get put back on?
 
 If one cylinder is not working as well as the others I'd guess that would be a cause for vibration. The coils have been know to go bad as they age. Maybe a bad coil is not allowing even firing of the cylinders. A bad coil could affect the entire rev band. Have you got an infrared heat thermometer? Measure the temps of the exhaust headers at startup. They should be some what close.
 

 Someone mentioned a valve check. Checking the valve gaps would be a good thing and it doesn't cost anything only your time.
 

 Our 900 engines are almost bullet proof so I'm thinking there is nothing mechanically wrong. Balance shafts don't skip a gear and get out of balance.
 

 Greg Andrews
 900 Sprint
 1200 Trident

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Re: Vibration

Jason Hart
In reply to this post by IVOR COLLINS
 Yes you can check without striping engine . On the 1994 engine it was held in place with a key way under the shaft and secured by pushing in place and tightening a bolt to hold it in place- not so easy to put back properly. Which is why mine eventually worked loose 
    On Sunday, August 4, 2019, 09:26:59 a.m. EDT, [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    
Thanks Jason
I can check the balance shaft without stripping the engine, the gear is secured with a circlip right?
I doubt that it’s the cam chain, the feel is different but I have found the tension spring is 3mm short so have ordered one anyway and will try that first.

Regards
   
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Re: Vibration

Samuel Crider
Hi Ivor,

Assuming the main output shaft is still in order and not trashed from
having a tight chain. I'd go ahead and pull the sump and cam cover to see
what all has accumulated in the nooks and crannies. And make sure the pump
intake is clean. Back when I first bought my BBBB she was quite noisy. And
much to my surprise at 8kmi also had a short tensioner spring. Which led to
me replacing the timing chain. Turned out the difference between the new
and the existing chain length was substantial. In fact it caused me to
investigate if I had the correct replacement. Which I did. The excess oem
chain length had caused the tensioner to drop to the bottom. Nevertheless,
you can probably imagine the amount of chain flapping occurring. But this
presented to the ear as a sine wave rolling clatter. And definitely was
most noticable at mid rpm's. So I ordered up the whole parts package.
Including new cam/crank gears which I returned  as the oem gears were all
still perfect.  Remarkably even the guide under all of this flapping was
unscaved.

 So my advice would be to set the valves and carefully check the camshaft
align bores for wear. If they look good then chances are you do not have
much if a lube oil issue. As they are usually the first to be wiped out.
Then at a minimum replace the chain and tensioner spring. After all of that
have a listen again. These engines are in an entirely separate category
noise. They seem like they don't even has an external case they are so
loud. Which I've grown to like as you can hear everything going on. Plus in
your case the Triple sounds even better.

If you get lucky the bottom end and tranny are still good.

Let us know what you find.

Best wishes,
Samuel
96 BBBB PB
New Orleans

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019, 11:47 AM Jason Hart [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Yes you can check without striping engine . On the 1994 engine it was held
> in place with a key way under the shaft and secured by pushing in place and
> tightening a bolt to hold it in place- not so easy to put back properly.
> Which is why mine eventually worked loose
>
> On Sunday, August 4, 2019, 09:26:59 a.m. EDT, [hidden email]
> [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Jason
> I can check the balance shaft without stripping the engine, the gear is
> secured with a circlip right?
> I doubt that it’s the cam chain, the feel is different but I have found
> the tension spring is 3mm short so have ordered one anyway and will try
> that first.
>
> Regards
>
>
>
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Re: Vibration

Jason Hart
In reply to this post by gandrews1228
 Mine literally fell lose and slipped out so was no longer engaged on the 1994 trident 
Jason
    On Monday, August 5, 2019, 03:15:49 p.m. EDT, [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    
Hi Ivor, 
Someone mentioned carb balancing, that might be the cause, but I have my doubts about it since the vibration is all thru the rev range. 
Another post talked about installing gel grips. Was that you? Did the handle bar end weights get put back on?
If one cylinder is not working as well as the others I'd guess that would be a cause for vibration. The coils have been know to go bad as they age. Maybe a bad coil is not allowing even firing of the cylinders. A bad coil could affect the entire rev band. Have you got an infrared heat thermometer? Measure the temps of the exhaust headers at startup. They should be some what close.
Someone mentioned a valve check. Checking the valve gaps would be a good thing and it doesn't cost anything only your time.
Our 900 engines are almost bullet proof so I'm thinking there is nothing mechanically wrong. Balance shafts don't skip a gear and get out of balance.
Greg Andrews900 Sprint1200 Trident    
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Re: Vibration

Jim Miles
In reply to this post by Samuel Crider
Was the inside of the filter element clean??

Jim

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 3:01 PM Samuel Crider [hidden email]
[TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Ivor,
>
> Assuming the main output shaft is still in order and not trashed from
> having a tight chain. I'd go ahead and pull the sump and cam cover to see
> what all has accumulated in the nooks and crannies. And make sure the pump
> intake is clean. Back when I first bought my BBBB she was quite noisy. And
> much to my surprise at 8kmi also had a short tensioner spring. Which led to
> me replacing the timing chain. Turned out the difference between the new
> and the existing chain length was substantial. In fact it caused me to
> investigate if I had the correct replacement. Which I did. The excess oem
> chain length had caused the tensioner to drop to the bottom. Nevertheless,
> you can probably imagine the amount of chain flapping occurring. But this
> presented to the ear as a sine wave rolling clatter. And definitely was
> most noticable at mid rpm's. So I ordered up the whole parts package.
> Including new cam/crank gears which I returned  as the oem gears were all
> still perfect.  Remarkably even the guide under all of this flapping was
> unscaved.
>
>  So my advice would be to set the valves and carefully check the camshaft
> align bores for wear. If they look good then chances are you do not have
> much if a lube oil issue. As they are usually the first to be wiped out.
> Then at a minimum replace the chain and tensioner spring. After all of that
> have a listen again. These engines are in an entirely separate category
> noise. They seem like they don't even has an external case they are so
> loud. Which I've grown to like as you can hear everything going on. Plus in
> your case the Triple sounds even better.
>
> If you get lucky the bottom end and tranny are still good.
>
> Let us know what you find.
>
> Best wishes,
> Samuel
> 96 BBBB PB
> New Orleans
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019, 11:47 AM Jason Hart [hidden email]
> [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Yes you can check without striping engine . On the 1994 engine it was
>> held in place with a key way under the shaft and secured by pushing in
>> place and tightening a bolt to hold it in place- not so easy to put back
>> properly. Which is why mine eventually worked loose
>>
>> On Sunday, August 4, 2019, 09:26:59 a.m. EDT, [hidden email]
>> [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Jason
>> I can check the balance shaft without stripping the engine, the gear is
>> secured with a circlip right?
>> I doubt that it’s the cam chain, the feel is different but I have found
>> the tension spring is 3mm short so have ordered one anyway and will try
>> that first.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
Thanks for all the replies and suggestions, the forum has been so quiet, I’m pleased to have given it a bit of a resurgence!
The tension spring turned up today. £17, really, just for a little spring! So I will get that in first bit there are no harmonics to the vibration so I’m not really expecting a solution. The bar weights are in but as the vibration is through the whole machine and can be felt through footpegs, bars and through my ass, it feels like it’s coming from the bottom end of the machine. The valve clearances are good, ignition and exhaust temps fine and carbs balanced. I’m actually wondering if a main bearing is allowing the crank to whip, either because the bearing has failed to the cap has loosened off. Would I get a hint from oil pressure readings? What is the normal pressure?
Regards
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Re: Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
In reply to this post by Jim Miles
Hi Jim
I’ve not done the filter element inspection yet, I have a new filter on order so depending on the results of the spring change today that will be next on the list. Planning a gentle run over to Oxford (with fingers crossed) tonight.
 These models are such great machines and the styling, especially when set off with the BRG colour scheme, makes me almost as happy looking at it as riding but I will feel a lot better when this is sorted. I’m dreading the thought of having the engine out again, I don’t have the time and I want to be out on it not stripping it down. It may have to be a winter project now, I do have a Norton and some Ariel I can wheel out but they are not a patch on the Triumph for distance, comfort and speed.

Regards
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Re: Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
In reply to this post by Jim Miles
 Hi Jim
My reply disappeared! Isn’t yahoo wonderful? Most clubs have gone away from the site now. Here goes again........
I’ve not peeled the filter open yet but I have one on order to do that next. I fitted the new chain spring yesterday and rode the bike to Oxford, seems to be the same vibration with the bike still going well but I’m a bit nervous... If I have a crank bearing failing or bearing cap coming adrift would it show up on an oil pressure gauge reading?Has anyone tried the phone app which measures vibration? Wish I had done that when the bike was good for a comparison.
Regards
    On Monday, 5 August 2019, 22:57:38 BST, Jim Miles [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

  

Was the inside of the filter element clean??
Jim
On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 3:01 PM Samuel Crider [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

  

Hi Ivor,
Assuming the main output shaft is still in order and not trashed from having a tight chain. I'd go ahead and pull the sump and cam cover to see what all has accumulated in the nooks and crannies. And make sure the pump intake is clean. Back when I first bought my BBBB she was quite noisy. And much to my surprise at 8kmi also had a short tensioner spring. Which led to me replacing the timing chain. Turned out the difference between the new and the existing chain length was substantial. In fact it caused me to investigate if I had the correct replacement. Which I did. The excess oem chain length had caused the tensioner to drop to the bottom. Nevertheless, you can probably imagine the amount of chain flapping occurring. But this presented to the ear as a sine wave rolling clatter. And definitely was most noticable at mid rpm's. So I ordered up the whole parts package. Including new cam/crank gears which I returned  as the oem gears were all still perfect.  Remarkably even the guide under all of this flapping was unscaved. 
 So my advice would be to set the valves and carefully check the camshaft align bores for wear. If they look good then chances are you do not have much if a lube oil issue. As they are usually the first to be wiped out. Then at a minimum replace the chain and tensioner spring. After all of that have a listen again. These engines are in an entirely separate category noise. They seem like they don't even has an external case they are so loud. Which I've grown to like as you can hear everything going on. Plus in your case the Triple sounds even better.
If you get lucky the bottom end and tranny are still good.
Let us know what you find.
Best wishes,Samuel 96 BBBB PBNew Orleans
On Mon, Aug 5, 2019, 11:47 AM Jason Hart [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:



 Yes you can check without striping engine . On the 1994 engine it was held in place with a key way under the shaft and secured by pushing in place and tightening a bolt to hold it in place- not so easy to put back properly. Which is why mine eventually worked loose 
    On Sunday, August 4, 2019, 09:26:59 a.m. EDT, [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

  
Thanks Jason
I can check the balance shaft without stripping the engine, the gear is secured with a circlip right?
I doubt that it’s the cam chain, the feel is different but I have found the tension spring is 3mm short so have ordered one anyway and will try that first.

Regards






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Re: Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
In reply to this post by Jim Miles
 I have penned 3 replies, none showing up on the forum! I give up with yahoo






    On Monday, 5 August 2019, 22:57:38 BST, Jim Miles [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

    

Was the inside of the filter element clean??
Jim
On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 3:01 PM Samuel Crider [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

  

Hi Ivor,
Assuming the main output shaft is still in order and not trashed from having a tight chain. I'd go ahead and pull the sump and cam cover to see what all has accumulated in the nooks and crannies. And make sure the pump intake is clean. Back when I first bought my BBBB she was quite noisy. And much to my surprise at 8kmi also had a short tensioner spring. Which led to me replacing the timing chain... Turned out the difference between the new and the existing chain length was substantial. In fact it caused me to investigate if I had the correct replacement. Which I did. The excess oem chain length had caused the tensioner to drop to the bottom. Nevertheless, you can probably imagine the amount of chain flapping occurring. But this presented to the ear as a sine wave rolling clatter. And definitely was most noticable at mid rpm's. So I ordered up the whole parts package. Including new cam/crank gears which I returned  as the oem gears were all still perfect.  Remarkably even the guide under all of this flapping was unscaved. 
 So my advice would be to set the valves and carefully check the camshaft align bores for wear. If they look good then chances are you do not have much if a lube oil issue. As they are usually the first to be wiped out. Then at a minimum replace the chain and tensioner spring. After all of that have a listen again. These engines are in an entirely separate category noise. They seem like they don't even has an external case they are so loud. Which I've grown to like as you can hear everything going on. Plus in your case the Triple sounds even better.
If you get lucky the bottom end and tranny are still good.
Let us know what you find.
Best wishes,Samuel 96 BBBB PBNew Orleans
On Mon, Aug 5, 2019, 11:47 AM Jason Hart [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:



 Yes you can check without striping engine . On the 1994 engine it was held in place with a key way under the shaft and secured by pushing in place and tightening a bolt to hold it in place- not so easy to put back properly. Which is why mine eventually worked loose 
    On Sunday, August 4, 2019, 09:26:59 a.m. EDT, [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

  
Thanks Jason
I can check the balance shaft without stripping the engine, the gear is secured with a circlip right?
I doubt that it’s the cam chain, the feel is different but I have found the tension spring is 3mm short so have ordered one anyway and will try that first.

Regards






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Re: Vibration

Samuel Crider
In reply to this post by IVOR COLLINS
So how many clicks were left on the tensioner post after the spring
replacement?

On Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 11:21 AM [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jim
> I’ve not done the filter element inspection yet, I have a new filter on
> order so depending on the results of the spring change today that will be
> next on the list. Planning a gentle run over to Oxford (with fingers
> crossed) tonight.
>  These models are such great machines and the styling, especially when set
> off with the BRG colour scheme, makes me almost as happy looking at it as
> riding but I will feel a lot better when this is sorted. I’m dreading the
> thought of having the engine out again, I don’t have the time and I want to
> be out on it not stripping it down. It may have to be a winter project now,
> I do have a Norton and some Ariel I can wheel out but they are not a patch
> on the Triumph for distance, comfort and speed.
>
> Regards
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: [hidden email]
> ------------------------------------
>
> List guidelines: PLEASE NO grumpy replies, or replies which merely add
> agreement to a previous post. If a reply is only relevant to the original
> writer, please REPLY DIRECT to that person. No SPAM, no adult-oriented
> topics, and no postings of a political or commercial nature are allowed,
> except for personal items for sale/wanted. Please trim old messages to a
> minimum when replying.
>
>
> Post message: [hidden email]
> Subscribe:  [hidden email]
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> Yahoo Groups Links
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Re: Vibration

gandrews1228
In reply to this post by IVOR COLLINS
Hi Ivor, I been thinking about the vibration problem. I kind of doubt the cam spring tensioner is going to be the fix, but it can't hurt anything. You'll probably be taking off the cam cover for this spring job. While you're in there check the valve timing. Maybe you'll notice that one of the gears is off by one tooth. That happened to my 900 Trophy. Stupid mechanic (me). It ran okay but it just didn't want to rev past 7K. Balance Shaft
 Not likely but maybe the balance shaft skipped a gear. Resetting the balance shaft shouldn't be that hard to do. Get the engine at TDC with the cam arrows pointing at each other then take off the balance shaft cover. The shaft is held in place by a little plate with two screws. I don't quite understand the purpose of the slipper gear attached the balance shaft gear. Anyway get all the little dots lined up again and reassemble, maybe the shaft cover gear gasket didn't get hurt and you can reuse it.
 Good Luck,
 Greg Andrews
 1200 Trident
 900 Sprint
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Re: Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
Thanks Greg

I’m waiting for it to give me another clue before stripping anything down, I find the fact that at lower revs it is perfectly normal a bit strange, would expect some clues but nothing yet. I’m working and busy with family chores (single parent with 2 at home still) plus the weather is crap at the moment so nothing happening on it in any great hurry.
How would the balance shaft skip a gear?
Regards
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Re: Vibration

IVOR COLLINS
In reply to this post by Samuel Crider
Hi Samuel

I only fitted the spring and didn’t back the adjuster off at all, maybe I should have........

Regards
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Re: Vibration

Samuel Crider
Hi Ivor,

If I remember correctly you can either carefully count the clicks it moves
outward during installation. Or gently remove the spring and determine how
far outwards it went after the installation and settling in. On a new chain
they usually fall out on the outer middle. On a used chain it is probably
down to the last click or fully extended. I'm not sure what the deal is on
these springs being shorter. Mine was actually so short that it was
bouncing around in the cavity. I can't imagine that it shrank down to that
length in 8kmi. Changing the chain and spring got rid of a mid-band sort of
rolling oscillation in my case. Which was noisy but didn't present as a
bottom end sounding issue. I'd get ahold of a stethoscope and yank off the
head. Then listen with just the hose and see if you can narrow it down. I'm
assuming this would have nothing to do with shearing alternator bolts or
such. I would definitely pull the pan to see what has settled out over the
years.

Best wishes,
Samuel

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:31 PM [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Samuel
>
> I only fitted the spring and didn’t back the adjuster off at all, maybe I
> should have........
>
> Regards
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: [hidden email]
> ------------------------------------
>
> List guidelines: PLEASE NO grumpy replies, or replies which merely add
> agreement to a previous post. If a reply is only relevant to the original
> writer, please REPLY DIRECT to that person. No SPAM, no adult-oriented
> topics, and no postings of a political or commercial nature are allowed,
> except for personal items for sale/wanted. Please trim old messages to a
> minimum when replying.
>
>
> Post message: [hidden email]
> Subscribe:  [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe:  [hidden email]
> List owner:  [hidden email]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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