Starting problem

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Starting problem

Ken Hastie

My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to be?
Ken Hastie1998 BBBB Trophy


Sent from my Samsung tablet.
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Re: Starting problem

IVOR COLLINS

--------------------------------------------
Hi Ken

You have traced it to the starter solenoid yes, a sort of relay.

You can always ‘make’ it start by turning the ignition on and using an old screwdriver or similar to short across those two ‘ HT’ terminals. Be sure that it’s in neutral though as this bypasses the interlock and be careful not to let the screwdriver touch any other metal to ground.

The same solenoid is available cheaply by avoiding the OE and buying from a quad bike supplier or similar. I can send an example if you like.

Regards
Ivor




On Wed, 12/9/18, Ken Hastie [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem
 To: [hidden email]
 Date: Wednesday, 12 September, 2018, 15:49
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       
 My 1998 BBBB
 Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the
 engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming
 from a wee electrical thing just ahead of the battery box.
 It is where there are a couple of thin wires and I think a
 couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the definite
 vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little
 device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the
 battery box and have a closer look but can anyone tell me
 what this is likely to be?  I suspect a relay of some sort
 but I can't find my Haynes manual for assistance and
 I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's
 likely to be?
 Ken
 Hastie1998 BBBB Trophy
 
 
 Sent from my Samsung
 tablet.
 
     
     
 
     
     
 
 
 
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Re: Starting problem

Jim Miles
In reply to this post by Ken Hastie
Hi Ken,

I know this is an obvious question but does it have a good battery
installed? Sounds like it might be dead and allowing only enough power to
party engage (buzz) the starter relay. If the battery is good then it’s
time to get the meter out. I’d start by confirming battery voltage. Then
confirm the same voltage is present at the relay. In looking at the
schematic it appears to be a fairly simple task. The relay should have 4
wires connected - starter sw- clutch sw - positive power from battery -
ground to starter motor.




Jim Miles
2003 gorgeous but non-running Trophy 1200.  Positioned next to a
less-gorgeous but fully operational 2010 Yamaha FJR 1300.
Memphis, TN




On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:46 PM Ken Hastie [hidden email]
[TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the
> engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical
> thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin
> wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the
> definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little
> device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and
> have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I
> suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for
> assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to
> be?
>
> Ken Hastie
> 1998 BBBB Trophy
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung tablet.
>
>
>

image_6483441.JPG (2M) Download Attachment
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Re: Starting problem

Jim Miles
Whoops, I sent the wrong schematic previously. Here you go:)




On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:23 PM Jim Miles <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ken,
>
> I know this is an obvious question but does it have a good battery
> installed? Sounds like it might be dead and allowing only enough power to
> party engage (buzz) the starter relay. If the battery is good then it’s
> time to get the meter out. I’d start by confirming battery voltage. Then
> confirm the same voltage is present at the relay. In looking at the
> schematic it appears to be a fairly simple task. The relay should have 4
> wires connected - starter sw- clutch sw - positive power from battery -
> ground to starter motor.
>
>
>
>
> Jim Miles
> 2003 gorgeous but non-running Trophy 1200.  Positioned next to a
> less-gorgeous but fully operational 2010 Yamaha FJR 1300.
> Memphis, TN
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:46 PM Ken Hastie [hidden email]
> [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the
>> engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical
>> thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin
>> wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the
>> definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little
>> device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and
>> have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I
>> suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for
>> assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to
>> be?
>>
>> Ken Hastie
>> 1998 BBBB Trophy
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Samsung tablet.
>>
>>
>>
>

image_6483441.JPG (2M) Download Attachment
image_6483441.JPG (2M) Download Attachment
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Re: Starting problem

Samuel Crider
In reply to this post by Jim Miles
Hi Ken,

I'd start at the battery. Disconnect the battery and clean the connection
lugs. Then carefully connect a car with hard biting jumper cables. If she
cranks either the connection or battery are at fault. If that fails to
produce results. Then start at tail end of the beast and work back from
there. Which in this case is the starter motor. I rebuilt mine at 9kmi and
was astounded by the mess when I split her open. Keep in mind that should
she loose conduction thru the starter housing into the engine case it's
game over right there. So it's a good idea to at least pull the starter and
polish off the corrosion around the mounting bolts. After that hopefully
she is back in action. If not then it could be the solenoid or any of the
connections all the way back to the battery.

Hopefully it is not related to upstream relays and sockets which engage the
solenoid. If you haven't already done so you might consider pulling them
and plugging them in and out a few times. As a bad connection at the relay
can cause drama. Now that I'm thinking about it I had to cut two of my
sockets out and replace them a few years ago.

Hope this helps and let us know what you find.

Best wishes,
Samuel
96 BBBB PB
New Orleans

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:23 PM Jim Miles [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> I know this is an obvious question but does it have a good battery
> installed? Sounds like it might be dead and allowing only enough power to
> party engage (buzz) the starter relay. If the battery is good then it’s
> time to get the meter out. I’d start by confirming battery voltage. Then
> confirm the same voltage is present at the relay. In looking at the
> schematic it appears to be a fairly simple task. The relay should have 4
> wires connected - starter sw- clutch sw - positive power from battery -
> ground to starter motor.
>
>
>
>
> Jim Miles
> 2003 gorgeous but non-running Trophy 1200.  Positioned next to a
> less-gorgeous but fully operational 2010 Yamaha FJR 1300.
> Memphis, TN
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:46 PM Ken Hastie [hidden email]
> [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the
>> engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical
>> thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin
>> wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the
>> definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little
>> device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and
>> have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I
>> suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for
>> assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to
>> be?
>>
>> Ken Hastie
>> 1998 BBBB Trophy
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Samsung tablet.
>>
>>
>
>
>

image_6483441.JPG (2M) Download Attachment
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Re: Starting problem

djacarr@sky.com
In reply to this post by Ken Hastie
Sounds like the starter solenoid. You can non-OEM replacements online for a fair bit less than Triumph prices.
There''s nothing special about them, the same thing is used on many bikes, quads etc.
I replaced mine a couple of years ago. The original was still working, but the engine turned over more smartly with the new one. I think the high current contacts inside get eroded

-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Hastie [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 12/09/2018  15:49  (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem


 



 


   
     
     
     
My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to be?
Ken Hastie1998 BBBB Trophy


Sent from my Samsung tablet.

   
     

   
   


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Re: Starting problem

Ken Hastie
Thanks you to the folks who replied....all is digested!  As it happens, I ordered a replacement solenoid/relay for a tenner off eBay as it seemed the easiest place to start. Yes, the battery is perfect, newish. One of those bright yellow ones ! LOL
I'll let you know how I get on.
Ken Hastie1998 BBBB



Sent from my Samsung tablet.
-------- Original message --------From: "djacarr [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]> Date: 12/09/2018  21:38  (GMT+00:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem












Sounds like the starter solenoid. You can non-OEM replacements online for a fair bit less than Triumph prices.
There''s nothing special about them, the same thing is used on many bikes, quads etc.
I replaced mine a couple of years ago. The original was still working, but the engine turned over more smartly with the new one. I think the high current contacts inside get eroded

-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Hastie [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 12/09/2018  15:49  (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem


 



   
     
     
     
My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to be?
Ken Hastie1998 BBBB Trophy


Sent from my Samsung tablet.

   
     

   


















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Re: Starting problem

Nigel Keating
In reply to this post by djacarr@sky.com
Hi ken, haven’t heard from you for a while. I agree with dj Carr. One sure test is to short across the two big terminals on the solenoid with a pair of pliers or something similar you don’t like too much.The motor will turn over ok if it’s the solenoid contacts burnt out.

Nigel
Sent from my iPhone

> On 12 Sep 2018, at 21:38, djacarr [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sounds like the starter solenoid. You can non-OEM replacements online for a fair bit less than Triumph prices.
>
>
> There''s nothing special about them, the same thing is used on many bikes, quads etc.
>
> I replaced mine a couple of years ago. The original was still working, but the engine turned over more smartly with the new one. I think the high current contacts inside get eroded
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "Ken Hastie [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
> Date: 12/09/2018 15:49 (GMT+00:00)
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem
>
>  
>
> My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to be?
>
> Ken Hastie
> 1998 BBBB Trophy
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung tablet.
>
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Re: Starting problem

Ken Hastie
Hi Nigel. Yes, I've been doing a lot of sailing since retiring from work but do get out on the BSAs from time to time. Unfortunately, the MOT ran out on the trophy two years ago and I knew the fork seals were leaking so left that bike in the garage.
Hopefully, back on the road soon.
Ken


Sent from my Samsung tablet.
-------- Original message --------From: "Nigel Keating [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]> Date: 12/09/2018  23:13  (GMT+00:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem












Hi ken, haven’t heard from you for a while. I agree with dj Carr. One sure test is to short across the two big terminals on the solenoid with a pair of pliers or something similar you don’t like too much.The motor will turn over ok if it’s the solenoid contacts burnt out.

NigelSent from my iPhone
On 12 Sep 2018, at 21:38, djacarr [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:














 

 



   
     
     
      Sounds like the starter solenoid. You can non-OEM replacements online for a fair bit less than Triumph prices.
There''s nothing special about them, the same thing is used on many bikes, quads etc.
I replaced mine a couple of years ago. The original was still working, but the engine turned over more smartly with the new one. I think the high current contacts inside get eroded

-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Hastie [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 12/09/2018  15:49  (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem


 



   
     
     
     
My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to be?
Ken Hastie1998 BBBB Trophy


Sent from my Samsung tablet.

   
     

   



   
     

   
























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Re: Starting problem

gandrews2
In reply to this post by Ken Hastie
Hi Ken,  It's good to hear from you. I was going to write earlier today but I couldn't get to the computer, my wife had just mopped the floor. I thought it was a crappy starter relay.
 I'm sure you are enjoying the sailing. I do miss your insights and contributions to the group.
 Greg Andrews
 '96 900 BRG
 Still running great at 108,000 miles
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Re: Starting problem

nort75mk3
In reply to this post by Ken Hastie
aren't you all forgetting about a possible fracture of the sprag clutch with a weak starting attempt or weak battery ….
,,,,Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Nigel Keating [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]>
To: TriumphTrophy <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 5:13 pm
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem

    Hi ken, haven’t heard from you for a while. I agree with dj Carr. One sure test is to short across the two big terminals on the solenoid with a pair of pliers or something similar you don’t like too much.The motor will turn over ok if it’s the solenoid contacts burnt out.

NigelSent from my iPhone
On 12 Sep 2018, at 21:38, djacarr [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:


    Sounds like the starter solenoid. You can non-OEM replacements online for a fair bit less than Triumph prices.
There''s nothing special about them, the same thing is used on many bikes, quads etc.
I replaced mine a couple of years ago. The original was still working, but the engine turned over more smartly with the new one. I think the high current contacts inside get eroded

-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Hastie [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 12/09/2018 15:49 (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem

   
My 1998 BBBB Trophy was iffy yesterday when trying to start. Now the engine won't turn over but there is a buzzing coming from a wee electrical thing just ahead of the battery box. It is where there are a couple of thin wires and I think a couple of HT leads coming out of it. I can feel the definite vibration through my finger when I rest it on this little device...quite loud too. Tomorrow's job is to remove the battery box and have a closer look but can anyone tell me what this is likely to be?  I suspect a relay of some sort but I can't find my Haynes manual for assistance and I'm hoping one of you experts may know what it's likely to be?
Ken Hastie1998 BBBB Trophy


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Re: Starting problem

Ken Hastie
I can't speak for "all" but I did say the battery was good, so it's not really a likely possibility. Best I start with the most obvious (and less expensive) possibilities first, then work my way through other options if fault doesn't lie there.
Ken Hastie1998 BBBB



Sent from my Samsung tablet.
-------- Original message --------From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]> Date: 13/09/2018  04:51  (GMT+00:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem














aren't you all forgetting about a possible fracture of the sprag clutch with a weak starting attempt or weak battery ….





,,,,Tim





-----Original Message-----

From: Nigel Keating [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]>

To: TriumphTrophy <[hidden email]>

Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 5:13 pm

Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Starting problem






 




 



   

     
     
     
Hi ken, haven’t heard from you for a while. I agree with dj Carr. One sure test is to short across the two big terminals on the solenoid with a pair of pliers or something similar you don’t like too much.The motor will turn over ok if it’s the solenoid contacts burnt out..



Nigel
Sent from my iPhone




On 12 Sep 2018, at 21:38, djacarr [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
















 

 



   

     
     
     
Sounds like the starter solenoid. You can non-OEM replacements online for a fair bit less than Triumph prices.




There''s nothing special about them, the same thing is used on many bikes, quads etc.




I replaced mine a couple of years ago. The original was still working, but the engine turned over more smartly with the new one. I think the high current contacts inside get eroded


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