Lumpy Running

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Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi All,
 

 I am a new member to this forum so forgive me if I have asked a question that has previously been asked!!
 

 I have been a classic bike rider/collector for many years but last year I bought a 1998 Triumph Trophy 3 for occasional use for my wife and I.
 

 I quite like the bike and it does everything asked of it but it does suffer from lumpy idle and judder under load below about 3,500rpm.
 I have never owned a Triumph Triple so am not sure if this is a common trait with these bikes or it is the sign of something not being quite right? Get above 3,500rpm and the bike pulls hard and is lovely an smooth.
 

 Any advice you can offer a "newbee" would be most welcome.
 

 Many Thanks,
 

 Allen.
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Re: Lumpy Running

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Hi Allen, Welcome to the group. Asking questions is a good thing. Your 98 900 Trophy is a fine bike, just like my '96 900. Trophys are kind of like a woman, they don't appreciate be ignored. Park it in the corner of the garage for two weeks and it will be hesitant to start. I try to ride my Sprint and Trophy at least two times per week. I've just put together a 1200 Trophy and turned it into a Trident. So riding a 1200 is a new experience for me and different from the 900. My brother also has two 900 engined bikes, a Trophy and a Super 3.  

 You noticed something at under 3,500 rpm. That's good, you have a feel for the bike. The power band on the 900 engine really doesn't start until 4 grand, and at 5 grand and above the power is really there. Let me explain with a short story.

 My brother and I have both noticed that all 4 of our bikes have a kind of shudder, you used the word judder. What ever the correct word is I don't know, but I know our bikes don't like it when we turn on a big handful of throttle at under 3,000 rpm's. The 1200 engine doesn't mind that kind of treatment. Low throttle input at 3 grand is okay, but not a handful.
 There is a fun road I ride to the Triumph motorcycle shop in San Bernardino, Calif. I have to go up over the mountain thru a place called Crestline. A little town at the top of the mountain. The north side of the mountain is twisty and steep, the south side is big high speed turns. Going up the north requires me to paddle thru the gears using 1, 2 and sometime 3rd. If I forget to downshift on a slow up hill turn the engine will let me know it ain't happy. The 1200 engine won't care. Going down the north side doesn't require much shifting. But the bike gets twitchy if I leave it in a low gear with no throttle at higher rpm's than 5 grand. I'm not sure what it is, maybe too much engine braking. But the throttle is too sensitive.
 

 You say you ride with your wife, good for you. Two up riding with a 900 engine will keep you shifting. One of the fun aspects of riding. Wind her out and shift, Yea Haw.
 

 Now the lumpy idle. My bother and I have experienced this a few times. It is always the same thing. A piece of crud is stuck in one of the pilot jets. Unfortunately using a carb cleaner spray or fuel additive won't work. Taking out the pilot jet is the only solution. And that is a take off the carbs kind of job. Getting the pilot jet out  is easy if you have the exact right size screw driver, but you probably won't have it. That is a whole other story that I won't get into now. If you are lucky the previous owner did the air box modification. I'll let another member of this group tell you about the air box mod.
 Enjoy your Trophy and keep the rpm's up above 4 grand.
 Greg Andrews
 Apple Valley, California
 BTW I'm not a liberal Californian

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Re: Lumpy Running

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Hi Allen,

 Welcome! OK, the first thing is that she is top heavy - the bike! Don't even look at the front brake at parking lot speeds let alone touch it. Use the front brake even a touch turning into a parking space may very well tip you over. Don't try to save it. You'll just hurt yourself. Replace the signal light that will break (not too expensive) and lesson learned.
 

 As for the rough low speed running, the 2 main probabilities are old, under- or erratically- performing coils/wires and dirty/partially plugged pilot jets/circuits. I think the best solution for the coils/wires is to install what we call the "Johnson Jolt" in conjunction with Coil-On-Plug coils (COP) from the (I think) 2002-03 TT600. I think there are some Honda CBR600 coils that are the same resistance. Do some searching here. I think I posted write-ups on mine when I did it. Get the coils used on eBay. You can get new connectors to connect your wiring to the COP's at auto parts stores cheap (same ones used on Ford 4.6 engines and a bunch of others). Use new relay, wiring & connectors for the Johnson Jolt. All done the cost should be about the same as one new coil like you have from a dealer.
 

 If you have dirty pilot jets/circuits, the only way to get them 100% clean is to remove the carbs and have them fully disassembled and cleaned using an ultrasonic cleaner for the circuits. If you do it yourself, do your research and just do one carb at a time so no parts get mixed up.
 

 Then there are the usual "catch-up" things to do with a new-to-you used Trophy. Check/clean/tighten all the ground connections. I added a second ground from the battery to the ground point under the seat. Do the Temp Warning Light TSB which moves a ground wire from an upper radiator mount to the top of the frame backbone. Not at all difficult.
 

 Get a new pick-up coil to have on hand. Unless your bike's previous owner replaced it recently, you will. Someday the engine will just stop. 10-20 minutes later it will start and run for a few more minutes. That's a bad pick-up coil.
 

 Keep your tire pressures at 36-38 Front & 40-42 Rear. Shock pre-load at near max for you or at max if riding 2 up (original shock). You're probably due for new fork oil, too, when you get around to it.
 

 When you get all this sorted out, you're going to LOVE this bike. It has good low end torque, but the real sweet spot starts above 3000 RPM. Mine loves to cruise at 5000-5500 RPM.
 

 Cheers,
 Glenn
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Re: Lumpy Running

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Very informative, thank you very much Greg.


I had planned to take the carbs off during the winter and get them ultrasonically cleaned so hopefully this will cure the lumpy idle.


As for the judder/shudder I'll keep it 4K +


All the best,


Allen.


________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]>
Sent: 13 January 2017 15:34
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Hi Allen, Welcome to the group. Asking questions is a good thing. Your 98 900 Trophy is a fine bike, just like my '96 900. Trophys are kind of like a woman, they don't appreciate be ignored. Park it in the corner of the garage for two weeks and it will be hesitant to start. I try to ride my Sprint and Trophy at least two times per week. I've just put together a 1200 Trophy and turned it into a Trident. So riding a 1200 is a new experience for me and different from the 900. My brother also has two 900 engined bikes, a Trophy and a Super 3.

You noticed something at under 3,500 rpm. That's good, you have a feel for the bike. The power band on the 900 engine really doesn't start until 4 grand, and at 5 grand and above the power is really there. Let me explain with a short story.

My brother and I have both noticed that all 4 of our bikes have a kind of shudder, you used the word judder. What ever the correct word is I don't know, but I know our bikes don't like it when we turn on a big handful of throttle at under 3,000 rpm's. The 1200 engine doesn't mind that kind of treatment. Low throttle input at 3 grand is okay, but not a handful.
There is a fun road I ride to the Triumph motorcycle shop in San Bernardino, Calif. I have to go up over the mountain thru a place called Crestline. A little town at the top of the mountain. The north side of the mountain is twisty and steep, the south side is big high speed turns. Going up the north requires me to paddle thru the gears using 1, 2 and sometime 3rd. If I forget to downshift on a slow up hill turn the engine will let me know it ain't happy. The 1200 engine won't care. Going down the north side doesn't require much shifting. But the bike gets twitchy if I leave it in a low gear with no throttle at higher rpm's than 5 grand. I'm not sure what it is, maybe too much engine braking. But the throttle is too sensitive.

You say you ride with your wife, good for you. Two up riding with a 900 engine will keep you shifting. One of the fun aspects of riding. Wind her out and shift, Yea Haw.

Now the lumpy idle. My bother and I have experienced this a few times. It is always the same thing. A piece of crud is stuck in one of the pilot jets. Unfortunately using a carb cleaner spray or fuel additive won't work. Taking out the pilot jet is the only solution. And that is a take off the carbs kind of job. Getting the pilot jet out  is easy if you have the exact right size screw driver, but you probably won't have it. That is a whole other story that I won't get into now. If you are lucky the previous owner did the air box modification. I'll let another member of this group tell you about the air box mod.
Enjoy your Trophy and keep the rpm's up above 4 grand.
Greg Andrews
Apple Valley, California
BTW I'm not a liberal Californian


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Re: Lumpy Running

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In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Glen

All good advice, thanks very much.

A good few jobs to keep me busy over the winter!!

Regards

Allen



Sent from my Samsung device


-------- Original message --------
From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 13/01/2017 16:18 (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Hi Allen,

Welcome! OK, the first thing is that she is top heavy - the bike! Don't even look at the front brake at parking lot speeds let alone touch it. Use the front brake even a touch turning into a parking space may very well tip you over. Don't try to save it. You'll just hurt yourself. Replace the signal light that will break (not too expensive) and lesson learned.

As for the rough low speed running, the 2 main probabilities are old, under- or erratically- performing coils/wires and dirty/partially plugged pilot jets/circuits. I think the best solution for the coils/wires is to install what we call the "Johnson Jolt" in conjunction with Coil-On-Plug coils (COP) from the (I think) 2002-03 TT600. I think there are some Honda CBR600 coils that are the same resistance. Do some searching here. I think I posted write-ups on mine when I did it. Get the coils used on eBay. You can get new connectors to connect your wiring to the COP's at auto parts stores cheap (same ones used on Ford 4.6 engines and a bunch of others). Use new relay, wiring & connectors for the Johnson Jolt. All done the cost should be about the same as one new coil like you have from a dealer.

If you have dirty pilot jets/circuits, the only way to get them 100% clean is to remove the carbs and have them fully disassembled and cleaned using an ultrasonic cleaner for the circuits. If you do it yourself, do your research and just do one carb at a time so no parts get mixed up.

Then there are the usual "catch-up" things to do with a new-to-you used Trophy. Check/clean/tighten all the ground connections. I added a second ground from the battery to the ground point under the seat. Do the Temp Warning Light TSB which moves a ground wire from an upper radiator mount to the top of the frame backbone. Not at all difficult.

Get a new pick-up coil to have on hand. Unless your bike's previous owner replaced it recently, you will. Someday the engine will just stop. 10-20 minutes later it will start and run for a few more minutes. That's a bad pick-up coil.

Keep your tire pressures at 36-38 Front & 40-42 Rear. Shock pre-load at near max for you or at max if riding 2 up (original shock). You're probably due for new fork oil, too, when you get around to it.

When you get all this sorted out, you're going to LOVE this bike. It has good low end torque, but the real sweet spot starts above 3000 RPM. Mine loves to cruise at 5000-5500 RPM.

Cheers,
Glenn


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Re: Lumpy Running

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In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list

   
Ultrasonic cleaning of carbs can loosen the enrichiner circuit jets which are imbedded in the plastic float assemblies.
PLEASE, no ultrasonics.  Do it the old fashioned way without compressed air. 
These are "Old School" bikes.
Bob Clark01 Sunset Red Trophy 120096 BRG Thunderbird 900Jacksonville, FL


Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Allen Goddard [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 1/13/17  10:49 AM  (GMT-05:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running














 

 



 


   
     
     
     



Very informative, thank you very much Greg.



I had planned to take the carbs off during the winter and get them ultrasonically cleaned so hopefully this will cure the lumpy idle.



As for the judder/shudder I'll keep it 4K + 



All the best,



Allen.






From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]>

Sent: 13 January 2017 15:34

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running
 

 



Hi Allen, Welcome to the group. Asking questions is a good thing. Your 98 900 Trophy is a fine bike, just like my '96 900. Trophys are kind of like a woman, they don't appreciate be ignored. Park it in the corner of the garage for two weeks and it will be
 hesitant to start. I try to ride my Sprint and Trophy at least two times per week. I've just put together a 1200 Trophy and turned it into a Trident. So riding a 1200 is a new experience for me and different from the 900. My brother also has two 900 engined
 bikes, a Trophy and a Super 3. 



You noticed something at under 3,500 rpm. That's good, you have a feel for the bike. The power band on the 900 engine really doesn't start until 4 grand, and at 5 grand and above the power is really there. Let me explain with a short story.



My brother and I have both noticed that all 4 of our bikes have a kind of shudder, you used the word judder. What ever the correct word is I don't know, but I know our bikes don't like it when we turn on a big handful of throttle at under 3,000 rpm's.
 The 1200 engine doesn't mind that kind of treatment. Low throttle input at 3 grand is okay, but not a handful.
There is a fun road I ride to the Triumph motorcycle shop in San Bernardino, Calif. I have to go up over the mountain thru a place called Crestline. A little town at the top of the mountain. The north side of the mountain is twisty and steep, the south
 side is big high speed turns. Going up the north requires me to paddle thru the gears using 1, 2 and sometime 3rd. If I forget to downshift on a slow up hill turn the engine will let me know it ain't happy. The 1200 engine won't care. Going down the north
 side doesn't require much shifting. But the bike gets twitchy if I leave it in a low gear with no throttle at higher rpm's than 5 grand. I'm not sure what it is, maybe too much engine braking. But the throttle is too sensitive.



You say you ride with your wife, good for you. Two up riding with a 900 engine will keep you shifting. One of the fun aspects of riding. Wind her out and shift, Yea Haw.



Now the lumpy idle. My bother and I have experienced this a few times. It is always the same thing. A piece of crud is stuck in one of the pilot jets. Unfortunately using a carb cleaner spray or fuel additive won't work. Taking out the pilot jet is the
 only solution. And that is a take off the carbs kind of job. Getting the pilot jet out  is easy if you have the exact right size screw driver, but you probably won't have it. That is a whole other story that I won't get into now. If you are lucky the previous
 owner did the air box modification. I'll let another member of this group tell you about the air box mod.
Enjoy your Trophy and keep the rpm's up above 4 grand. 
Greg Andrews
Apple Valley, California
BTW I'm not a liberal Californian











   
     

   
   

         
 
 

   
     

   
       
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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
I guess the answer must be remove the floats before ultrasonic cleaning. The Keihins should be OK, though. It's the Mikunis with the enrichment jets in the floats.

 Cheers,
 Glenn
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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Allen,
I can think of a few areas off the top of my head that might be involved.
Use a spray bottle to squirt water on the exhaust header to find out which cylinder isn't firing at idle.
1. Check the connections on your spark plug boots.  A poorly connected boot can result in a cylinder that doesn't want to fire.  Pull the plugs while you're in there and make sure they all look good and have the right gap.  Check the impedence on the coils to make sure they're all good. Bad coils usually show up at high RPM, but it's a good check to make anyways.  Check your voltage at idle.  Low voltage at idle might make the spark too weak.  Check your coil connectors for the same reason.
2. Make sure your vacuum caps on the carburetors are all either in-place or connected to the fuel tap and aren't leaking.  A leaking vacuum cap would cause a lean condition at low RPM.

3. Check the carburetor balance before and after working on it.  Out-of-balance carbs indicate either that they're not synched or that one is off.
3. Remove the air filter (easy if the airbox mod has been done, harder otherwise) and make sure the slides on your carbs all move smoothly. A slide stuck in a raised position would cause that cylinder to run rich at low RPMs.
4. If you needed to remove the carburetors to remove the air filter, then you might as well clean them one at a time, without separating them.  Use WD-40 on the plastics and a carburetor cleaner on the metal.  Make sure to use an impact driver and Japanese Machine Screw bit to remove the screws.  Don't try to use a Phillips.  Be prepared to make a run to Ace and replace the screws with allen bolts.  Look for clogged jets, particularly the low-speed jets on the bottom of the carb (most have the freeze-plugs drilled out so you can make adjustments (you might be able to do this before some of the other items)
5. Make sure the enrichment actuator rail is correctly engaged on all of the carbs.  Make sure the enrichment uplift tubes (Mikunis) are all intact.  JB Weld can be used to repair a broken tube.
6. Worse-case type of scenario, if your bike has higher miles and valve checks/adjustments haven't been kept up, you may have a valve with no clearance.  This would cause a cylinder to not fire at idle and to be weak at higher RPMs.  You'd need to fix that before you burn the valve.
- Dave

 
      From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:42 AM
 Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Lumpy Running
   
    Hi All,
I am a new member to this forum so forgive me if I have asked a question that has previously been asked!!
I have been a classic bike rider/collector for many years but last year I bought a 1998 Triumph Trophy 3 for occasional use for my wife and I.
I quite like the bike and it does everything asked of it but it does suffer from lumpy idle and judder under load below about 3,500rpm. I have never owned a Triumph Triple so am not sure if this is a common trait with these bikes or it is the sign of something not being quite right? Get above 3,500rpm and the bike pulls hard and is lovely an smooth.
Any advice you can offer a "newbee" would be most welcome.
Many Thanks,
Allen.  #yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371 -- #yiv9896945371ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-mkp #yiv9896945371hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-mkp #yiv9896945371ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-mkp .yiv9896945371ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-mkp .yiv9896945371ad p {margin:0;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-mkp .yiv9896945371ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-sponsor #yiv9896945371ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-sponsor #yiv9896945371ygrp-lc #yiv9896945371hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv9896945371 #yiv9896945371ygrp-sponsor #yiv9896945371ygrp-lc .yiv9896945371ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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Re: Lumpy Running

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Hi Dave

Many thanks for the very thorough reply, most helpful.
A couple of replies have mentioned the air box modification, is there details of this on the forum do you know?

Thanks again

Allen



Sent from my Samsung device


-------- Original message --------
From: "David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 13/01/2017 21:20 (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Lumpy Running



Hi Allen,

I can think of a few areas off the top of my head that might be involved.

Use a spray bottle to squirt water on the exhaust header to find out which cylinder isn't firing at idle.

1. Check the connections on your spark plug boots.  A poorly connected boot can result in a cylinder that doesn't want to fire.  Pull the plugs while you're in there and make sure they all look good and have the right gap.  Check the impedence on the coils to make sure they're all good. Bad coils usually show up at high RPM, but it's a good check to make anyways.  Check your voltage at idle.  Low voltage at idle might make the spark too weak.  Check your coil connectors for the same reason.

2. Make sure your vacuum caps on the carburetors are all either in-place or connected to the fuel tap and aren't leaking.  A leaking vacuum cap would cause a lean condition at low RPM.

3. Check the carburetor balance before and after working on it.  Out-of-balance carbs indicate either that they're not synched or that one is off.

3. Remove the air filter (easy if the airbox mod has been done, harder otherwise) and make sure the slides on your carbs all move smoothly. A slide stuck in a raised position would cause that cylinder to run rich at low RPMs.

4. If you needed to remove the carburetors to remove the air filter, then you might as well clean them one at a time, without separating them.  Use WD-40 on the plastics and a carburetor cleaner on the metal.  Make sure to use an impact driver and Japanese Machine Screw bit to remove the screws.  Don't try to use a Phillips.  Be prepared to make a run to Ace and replace the screws with allen bolts.  Look for clogged jets, particularly the low-speed jets on the bottom of the carb (most have the freeze-plugs drilled out so you can make adjustments (you might be able to do this before some of the other items)

5. Make sure the enrichment actuator rail is correctly engaged on all of the carbs.  Make sure the enrichment uplift tubes (Mikunis) are all intact.  JB Weld can be used to repair a broken tube.

6. Worse-case type of scenario, if your bike has higher miles and valve checks/adjustments haven't been kept up, you may have a valve with no clearance.  This would cause a cylinder to not fire at idle and to be weak at higher RPMs.  You'd need to fix that before you burn the valve.

- Dave

________________________________
From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:42 AM
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Lumpy Running


Hi All,

I am a new member to this forum so forgive me if I have asked a question that has previously been asked!!

I have been a classic bike rider/collector for many years but last year I bought a 1998 Triumph Trophy 3 for occasional use for my wife and I.

I quite like the bike and it does everything asked of it but it does suffer from lumpy idle and judder under load below about 3,500rpm.
I have never owned a Triumph Triple so am not sure if this is a common trait with these bikes or it is the sign of something not being quite right? Get above 3,500rpm and the bike pulls hard and is lovely an smooth.

Any advice you can offer a "newbee" would be most welcome.

Many Thanks,

Allen.




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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Allen,

Welcome aboard. Bob is spot on on not using ultrasonics or dips, etc. In my
case I had to chase out some small passages with soft drawn copper wire
attached to a small drill. It was the only thing that would make all the
turns inside the carb bodys. Don't use any more rotation on the copper than
required. It will finally exit out with a clump of orange crud. At least in
my case. But I believe in my case that these small channels are related to
the slow speed circuits. First and foremost replace the air filter and mod
the rear by cutting it in half. Buy a new on so theres no decomposing foam
issues.  Its possible that the air filter could be causing issues. What
color are your plugs?

In the past your issue has turned out to be caused by a number of different
sources. From coils to plug wires to carb issues. Also, it could be that
the needle clips have been raised which lowers the needle causing a much
leaner mixture. Install a new air filter and plugs and set the crank sensor
gap. Then after a few hours of running time check the plug color. And get
back with us.

Best,
Samuel


Ultrasonic cleaning of carbs can loosen the enrichiner circuit jets which
are imbedded in the plastic float assemblies.

PLEASE, no ultrasonics.  Do it the old fashioned way without compressed
air.

These are "Old School" bikes.

Bob Clark
01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
96 BRG Thunderbird 900
Jacksonville, FL



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "Allen Goddard [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <
[hidden email]>
Date: 1/13/17 10:49 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Very informative, thank you very much Greg.


I had planned to take the carbs off during the winter and get
them ultrasonically cleaned so hopefully this will cure the lumpy idle.


As for the judder/shudder I'll keep it 4K +


All the best,


Allen.


------------------------------
*From:* [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on
behalf of [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <
[hidden email]>
*Sent:* 13 January 2017 15:34
*To:* [hidden email]
*Subject:* [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Hi Allen, Welcome to the group. Asking questions is a good thing. Your 98
900 Trophy is a fine bike, just like my '96 900. Trophys are kind of like a
woman, they don't appreciate be ignored. Park it in the corner of the
garage for two weeks and it will be hesitant to start. I try to ride my
Sprint and Trophy at least two times per week. I've just put together a
1200 Trophy and turned it into a Trident. So riding a 1200 is a new
experience for me and different from the 900. My brother also has two 900
engined bikes, a Trophy and a Super 3.

You noticed something at under 3,500 rpm. That's good, you have a feel for
the bike. The power band on the 900 engine really doesn't start until 4
grand, and at 5 grand and above the power is really there. Let me explain
with a short story.

My brother and I have both noticed that all 4 of our bikes have a kind of
shudder, you used the word judder. What ever the correct word is I don't
know, but I know our bikes don't like it when we turn on a big handful of
throttle at under 3,000 rpm's. The 1200 engine doesn't mind that kind of
treatment. Low throttle input at 3 grand is okay, but not a handful.
There is a fun road I ride to the Triumph motorcycle shop in San
Bernardino, Calif. I have to go up over the mountain thru a place called
Crestline. A little town at the top of the mountain. The north side of the
mountain is twisty and steep, the south side is big high speed turns. Going
up the north requires me to paddle thru the gears using 1, 2 and sometime
3rd. If I forget to downshift on a slow up hill turn the engine will let me
know it ain't happy. The 1200 engine won't care. Going down the north side
doesn't require much shifting. But the bike gets twitchy if I leave it in a
low gear with no throttle at higher rpm's than 5 grand. I'm not sure what
it is, maybe too much engine braking. But the throttle is too sensitive.

You say you ride with your wife, good for you. Two up riding with a 900
engine will keep you shifting. One of the fun aspects of riding. Wind her
out and shift, Yea Haw.

Now the lumpy idle. My bother and I have experienced this a few times. It
is always the same thing. A piece of crud is stuck in one of the pilot
jets. Unfortunately using a carb cleaner spray or fuel additive won't work.
Taking out the pilot jet is the only solution. And that is a take off the
carbs kind of job. Getting the pilot jet out  is easy if you have the exact
right size screw driver, but you probably won't have it. That is a whole
other story that I won't get into now. If you are lucky the previous owner
did the air box modification. I'll let another member of this group tell
you about the air box mod.
Enjoy your Trophy and keep the rpm's up above 4 grand.
Greg Andrews
Apple Valley, California
BTW I'm not a liberal Californian

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Re: Lumpy Running

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Thanks Samuel.

I will get the carbs stripped down over the next few weeks and that will give me a better idea if where I'm at.

Kind regards

Allen



Sent from my Samsung device


-------- Original message --------
From: "Samuel Crider [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 14/01/2017 01:53 (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Hi Allen,

Welcome aboard. Bob is spot on on not using ultrasonics or dips, etc. In my case I had to chase out some small passages with soft drawn copper wire attached to a small drill. It was the only thing that would make all the turns inside the carb bodys. Don't use any more rotation on the copper than required. It will finally exit out with a clump of orange crud. At least in my case. But I believe in my case that these small channels are related to the slow speed circuits. First and foremost replace the air filter and mod the rear by cutting it in half. Buy a new on so theres no decomposing foam issues.  Its possible that the air filter could be causing issues. What color are your plugs?

In the past your issue has turned out to be caused by a number of different sources. From coils to plug wires to carb issues. Also, it could be that the needle clips have been raised which lowers the needle causing a much leaner mixture. Install a new air filter and plugs and set the crank sensor gap. Then after a few hours of running time check the plug color. And get back with us.

Best,
Samuel


Ultrasonic cleaning of carbs can loosen the enrichiner circuit jets which are imbedded in the plastic float assemblies.

PLEASE, no ultrasonics.  Do it the old fashioned way without compressed air.

These are "Old School" bikes.

Bob Clark
01 Sunset Red Trophy 1200
96 BRG Thunderbird 900
Jacksonville, FL



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "Allen Goddard [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Date: 1/13/17 10:49 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Very informative, thank you very much Greg.


I had planned to take the carbs off during the winter and get them ultrasonically cleaned so hopefully this will cure the lumpy idle.


As for the judder/shudder I'll keep it 4K +


All the best,


Allen.


________________________________
From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> on behalf of [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Sent: 13 January 2017 15:34
To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Hi Allen, Welcome to the group. Asking questions is a good thing. Your 98 900 Trophy is a fine bike, just like my '96 900. Trophys are kind of like a woman, they don't appreciate be ignored. Park it in the corner of the garage for two weeks and it will be hesitant to start. I try to ride my Sprint and Trophy at least two times per week. I've just put together a 1200 Trophy and turned it into a Trident. So riding a 1200 is a new experience for me and different from the 900. My brother also has two 900 engined bikes, a Trophy and a Super 3.

You noticed something at under 3,500 rpm. That's good, you have a feel for the bike. The power band on the 900 engine really doesn't start until 4 grand, and at 5 grand and above the power is really there. Let me explain with a short story.

My brother and I have both noticed that all 4 of our bikes have a kind of shudder, you used the word judder. What ever the correct word is I don't know, but I know our bikes don't like it when we turn on a big handful of throttle at under 3,000 rpm's. The 1200 engine doesn't mind that kind of treatment. Low throttle input at 3 grand is okay, but not a handful.
There is a fun road I ride to the Triumph motorcycle shop in San Bernardino, Calif. I have to go up over the mountain thru a place called Crestline. A little town at the top of the mountain. The north side of the mountain is twisty and steep, the south side is big high speed turns. Going up the north requires me to paddle thru the gears using 1, 2 and sometime 3rd. If I forget to downshift on a slow up hill turn the engine will let me know it ain't happy. The 1200 engine won't care. Going down the north side doesn't require much shifting. But the bike gets twitchy if I leave it in a low gear with no throttle at higher rpm's than 5 grand. I'm not sure what it is, maybe too much engine braking. But the throttle is too sensitive.

You say you ride with your wife, good for you. Two up riding with a 900 engine will keep you shifting. One of the fun aspects of riding. Wind her out and shift, Yea Haw.

Now the lumpy idle. My bother and I have experienced this a few times. It is always the same thing. A piece of crud is stuck in one of the pilot jets. Unfortunately using a carb cleaner spray or fuel additive won't work. Taking out the pilot jet is the only solution. And that is a take off the carbs kind of job. Getting the pilot jet out  is easy if you have the exact right size screw driver, but you probably won't have it. That is a whole other story that I won't get into now. If you are lucky the previous owner did the air box modification. I'll let another member of this group tell you about the air box mod.
Enjoy your Trophy and keep the rpm's up above 4 grand.
Greg Andrews
Apple Valley, California
BTW I'm not a liberal Californian

________________________________
Posted by: Allen Goddard <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
________________________________
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Re: Lumpy Running

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Hi Allen, I'm glad to see others writing in with their advice. The group is always helpful to a newbie, but sometimes with too many suggestions on things to go after. Valves, coils, spark plug wires,etc. These other items you will get to eventually. But let's keep it simple for now since you are new to the Trophy. I didn't mention those things because you said it was running good after 3,500 rpm's. The pilot jet is doing most of the carb fueling at low throttle settings as more throttle is applied the needle height becomes the dominate player. The main jet is doing its work from 1/2 to wide open throttle WOT.
 I made a mistake in yesterdays post. Your bike may not be just like mine. In 1998 Triumph changed the carburetor supplier. The earlier Trophys were all fitted with Mikuni carbs, both 3 cylinder and 4 cylinder models. Sometime during 1998 the 3 cylinder engines were fitted with Keihin carbs. The 4 cylinder models retained the Mikuni carbs all the way till the end of production in 2003.
 So if your Trophy has Kiehin carbs it might not be a piece of crud in the pilot jet. But the rough idle problem is still in the low speed circuit: air screw, choke circuit, and pilot jet. I'm more familiar with Mikuni carbs, I had Kiehin's on one of my bikes for a year. I found it confusing having Kiehin's on one and Mikuni's on the other. So I let someone else give carb advice when it comes to Kiehin carbs.
 This is the best carb tuning  site I have found.
 CV Carb Tuning Procedures http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html 
 
 http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html 
 
 CV Carb Tuning Procedures http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html Have a website? Want to provide tuning information? Please do not plagiarize this page - it took years to develop and write and is not based on any other previous ...
 
 
 
 View on www.factorypro.com http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html 
 Preview by Yahoo
 
 
   

 I'm glad someone mention how top heavy these bikes are. After 10 mph they are fine, but backing it out of the garage or pushing it on the driveway is another story. If it leans too fare, and that ain't much, down it will go. Many of these fine motorcycles have been dropped in a garage or driveway and the turn signal will get broken.
 Greg


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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Allen,
Yes, the airbox mod can be located on the Triumph Trophy wiki at:
http://triumph-trophy.wikia.com/wiki/Airbox

As Samuel mentioned, check that air filter.  They have a tendency to rot out on the lower-left corner over multiple years if a needle-and-seat has leaked fuel into the airbox.
- Dave
 
      From: "Allen Goddard [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Lumpy Running
   
    Hi Dave
Many thanks for the very thorough reply, most helpful.A couple of replies have mentioned the air box modification, is there details of this on the forum do you know?
Thanks again
Allen

   
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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Good advice Greg;

     I wondered also what carbs were installed. Glad you brought that
up. While we are on carbs if they are Mikunis an easily overlooked item
is the enrichment jets lodged in the floats of the Mikuni carbs. If just
one were to fall out all the syncing, cleaning, valve adjustments, etc.
will not help. Be careful when dropping the float bowls off of a Mikuni
carb that there isn't a small brass jet amongst the other crap in there
and throw them away like I did!

Ed J.



On 1/14/2017 10:31 AM, [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] wrote:

>
>
> Hi Allen, I'm glad to see others writing in with their advice. The
> group is always helpful to a newbie, but sometimes with too many
> suggestions on things to go after. Valves, coils, spark plug
> wires,etc. These other items you will get to eventually. But let's
> keep it simple for now since you are new to the Trophy. I didn't
> mention those things because you said it was running good after 3,500
> rpm's. The pilot jet is doing most of the carb fueling at low throttle
> settings as more throttle is applied the needle height becomes the
> dominate player. The main jet is doing its work from 1/2 to wide open
> throttle WOT.
>
> I made a mistake in yesterdays post. Your bike may not be just like
> mine. In 1998 Triumph changed the carburetor supplier. The earlier
> Trophys were all fitted with Mikuni carbs, both 3 cylinder and 4
> cylinder models. Sometime during 1998 the 3 cylinder engines were
> fitted with Keihin carbs. The 4 cylinder models retained the Mikuni
> carbs all the way till the end of production in 2003.
> So if your Trophy has Kiehin carbs it might not be a piece of crud in
> the pilot jet. But the rough idle problem is still in the low speed
> circuit: air screw, choke circuit, and pilot jet. I'm more familiar
> with Mikuni carbs, I had Kiehin's on one of my bikes for a year. I
> found it confusing having Kiehin's on one and Mikuni's on the other.
> So I let someone else give carb advice when it comes to Kiehin carbs.
> This is the best carb tuning  site I have found.
> CV Carb Tuning Procedures
> <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
>
>
>
>
> image
> <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
>
>
>
> CV Carb Tuning Procedures
> <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
>
> Have a website? Want to provide tuning information? Please do not
> plagiarize this page - it took years to develop and write and is not
> based on any other previous ...
>
> View on www.factorypro.com
> <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
>
>
> Preview by Yahoo
>
> I'm glad someone mention how top heavy these bikes are. After 10 mph
> they are fine, but backing it out of the garage or pushing it on the
> driveway is another story. If it leans too fare, and that ain't much,
> down it will go. Many of these fine motorcycles have been dropped in a
> garage or driveway and the turn signal will get broken.
> Greg
>
>
>

--
Ed J. Indian Harbour Beach, FL 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200 321-795-4387


---
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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
Also I totally forgot to ask. Are the pipes still stock? That alone could
be the issue.
On Jan 14, 2017 10:53 AM, "Ed Johnson [hidden email]
[TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Good advice Greg;
>
>     I wondered also what carbs were installed. Glad you brought that up.
> While we are on carbs if they are Mikunis an easily overlooked item is the
> enrichment jets lodged in the floats of the Mikuni carbs. If just one were
> to fall out all the syncing, cleaning, valve adjustments, etc. will not
> help. Be careful when dropping the float bowls off of a Mikuni carb that
> there isn't a small brass jet amongst the other crap in there and throw
> them away like I did!
>
> Ed J.
>
>
>
> On 1/14/2017 10:31 AM, [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] wrote:
>
> Hi Allen, I'm glad to see others writing in with their advice. The group
> is always helpful to a newbie, but sometimes with too many suggestions on
> things to go after. Valves, coils, spark plug wires,etc. These other items
> you will get to eventually. But let's keep it simple for now since you are
> new to the Trophy. I didn't mention those things because you said it was
> running good after 3,500 rpm's. The pilot jet is doing most of the carb
> fueling at low throttle settings as more throttle is applied the needle
> height becomes the dominate player. The main jet is doing its work from 1/2
> to wide open throttle WOT.
>
> I made a mistake in yesterdays post. Your bike may not be just like mine.
> In 1998 Triumph changed the carburetor supplier. The earlier Trophys were
> all fitted with Mikuni carbs, both 3 cylinder and 4 cylinder models.
> Sometime during 1998 the 3 cylinder engines were fitted with Keihin carbs.
> The 4 cylinder models retained the Mikuni carbs all the way till the end of
> production in 2003.
> So if your Trophy has Kiehin carbs it might not be a piece of crud in the
> pilot jet. But the rough idle problem is still in the low speed circuit:
> air screw, choke circuit, and pilot jet. I'm more familiar with Mikuni
> carbs, I had Kiehin's on one of my bikes for a year. I found it confusing
> having Kiehin's on one and Mikuni's on the other. So I let someone else
> give carb advice when it comes to Kiehin carbs.
> This is the best carb tuning  site I have found.
> CV Carb Tuning Procedures
> <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
>
>
> [image: image]
> <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
>
> CV Carb Tuning Procedures
> <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
> Have a website? Want to provide tuning information? Please do not
> plagiarize this page - it took years to develop and write and is not based
> on any other previous ...
>
> View on www.factorypro.com
> <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
> I'm glad someone mention how top heavy these bikes are. After 10 mph they
> are fine, but backing it out of the garage or pushing it on the driveway is
> another story. If it leans too fare, and that ain't much, down it will go.
> Many of these fine motorcycles have been dropped in a garage or driveway
> and the turn signal will get broken.
> Greg
>
>
> --
> Ed J. Indian Harbour Beach, FL 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200 321-795-4387
> <(321)%20795-4387>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> [image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Mine has done that. 2-3 tankfuls with Seafoam did the trick (for me). YMMV.

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Yes still got the standard exhausts fitted.

Thanks



Sent from my Samsung device


-------- Original message --------
From: "Samuel Crider [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 14/01/2017 17:52 (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Also I totally forgot to ask. Are the pipes still stock? That alone could be the issue.

On Jan 14, 2017 10:53 AM, "Ed Johnson [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:



Good advice Greg;

    I wondered also what carbs were installed. Glad you brought that up. While we are on carbs if they are Mikunis an easily overlooked item is the enrichment jets lodged in the floats of the Mikuni carbs. If just one were to fall out all the syncing, cleaning, valve adjustments, etc. will not help. Be careful when dropping the float bowls off of a Mikuni carb that there isn't a small brass jet amongst the other crap in there and throw them away like I did!

Ed J.


On 1/14/2017 10:31 AM, [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [TriumphTrophy] wrote:
Hi Allen, I'm glad to see others writing in with their advice. The group is always helpful to a newbie, but sometimes with too many suggestions on things to go after. Valves, coils, spark plug wires,etc. These other items you will get to eventually. But let's keep it simple for now since you are new to the Trophy. I didn't mention those things because you said it was running good after 3,500 rpm's. The pilot jet is doing most of the carb fueling at low throttle settings as more throttle is applied the needle height becomes the dominate player. The main jet is doing its work from 1/2 to wide open throttle WOT.

I made a mistake in yesterdays post. Your bike may not be just like mine. In 1998 Triumph changed the carburetor supplier. The earlier Trophys were all fitted with Mikuni carbs, both 3 cylinder and 4 cylinder models. Sometime during 1998 the 3 cylinder engines were fitted with Keihin carbs. The 4 cylinder models retained the Mikuni carbs all the way till the end of production in 2003.
So if your Trophy has Kiehin carbs it might not be a piece of crud in the pilot jet. But the rough idle problem is still in the low speed circuit: air screw, choke circuit, and pilot jet. I'm more familiar with Mikuni carbs, I had Kiehin's on one of my bikes for a year. I found it confusing having Kiehin's on one and Mikuni's on the other. So I let someone else give carb advice when it comes to Kiehin carbs.
This is the best carb tuning  site I have found.
CV Carb Tuning Procedures<http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>




[image] <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>


CV Carb Tuning Procedures <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>
Have a website? Want to provide tuning information? Please do not plagiarize this page - it took years to develop and write and is not based on any other previous ...


View on www.factorypro.com <http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,cv,high_rpm_engines.html>

Preview by Yahoo






I'm glad someone mention how top heavy these bikes are. After 10 mph they are fine, but backing it out of the garage or pushing it on the driveway is another story. If it leans too fare, and that ain't much, down it will go. Many of these fine motorcycles have been dropped in a garage or driveway and the turn signal will get broken.
Greg

--
Ed J. Indian Harbour Beach, FL 2001 Triumph Trophy 1200 321-795-4387<tel:(321)%20795-4387>


________________________________
[Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
I have never heard of Seafoam, I will try googling it.
Are you in the UK?

Thanks

Allen



Sent from my Samsung device


-------- Original message --------
From: "Angel Hernandez [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 14/01/2017 18:15 (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running



Mine has done that. 2-3 tankfuls with Seafoam did the trick (for me). YMMV.

Sent from my iPhone


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Re: Lumpy Running

Triumph Trophy mailing list
Seafoam is a US fuel additive originally formulated for 2-stroke outboard (Evinrude) motors.  It's from a time when gasoline didn't have detergent additives, and it makes a great fuel system cleaner and water remover.
Your engine may run a bit hot, and it will likely produce white smoke while the Seafoam is working its way through.  Based on the outboard carb cleanout videos that I've watched, it's probably better to start on a nearly empty tank and mix up a half-gallon blend of heavy mixture Seafoam to start out with (I don't remember the ratio, maybe 1 cup/gallon or something ridiculous like that), then run the engine without load for a few minutes with the heavy mixture before filling all the way up to dilute the Seaform.  There is also a spray that is used to fog and de-carbon outboard engines, but hopefully your bike doesn't need de-carboning.
- Dave
 
      From: "Allen Goddard [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 4:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running
   
    I have never heard of Seafoam, I will try googling it.Are you in the UK?
Thanks 
Allen 


Sent from my Samsung device

-------- Original message --------
From: "Angel Hernandez [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 14/01/2017 18:15 (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: Lumpy Running

 Mine has done that. 2-3 tankfuls with Seafoam did the trick (for me). YMMV.

Sent from my iPhone
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