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Burp

David Webb
Long post...
I just read with interest the discussion about cooling system overflow tank bubbling away after shutting down, and I was experiencing the same issue earlier this summer.  I'm going to describe what I was experiencing, what I did, the results, and then I'm going to request feedback.
When I purchased my bike, it had been neglected for most of its then 12-years of life.  The coolant was orange from rust, not because the original coolant was orange.  I did my first cooling system flush a few weeks after purchasing it.

The last time I rode was in June, and in heavy traffic, I could feel a telltale hot inner-right thigh.  I have learned to interpret this feeling as: The coolant tank is puking coolant and I need to cool off the engine quickly, either by shutting it down and letting it cool, or by getting it rolling at an easy, constant speed that puts air through the radiator.
It had been about 2 years since my last coolant change, and the coolant in the overflow was showing signs of cloudiness.  I had also used a quart of motorcycle coolant and then topped everything else off with 1.5 quarts of distilled water, so I thought maybe my boiling point was lower than desired.  So, a couple of weeks ago, off came the lower fairing and left-front fairing, and I drained the cooling system by removing the top-front water pump bolt and the water jacket drain bolt.  The coolant that came out included some rust-colored dust and some black content.  I'm wondering if my coolant may have had some phosphoric acid in it that worked as a rust converter, or if...
I dropped by a motorcycle dealer on my way home during the next week and picked up 2 half-gallon containers of pre-mix motorcycle coolant.  The guy at the counter asked me whether I used engine ice or ethylene glycol coolant before handing me the ethylene glycol.  He told me that engine ice will turn to sludge when it contacts water, so I shouldn't mix them.
Saturday, I had another chance to work on the bike.  I had purchased 2 half-gallons of premix motorcycle coolant, and several gallons of distilled water.  I rolled the bike out of the garage and set it on its kickstand to drain the remaining coolant from the engine.  It came out cloudy.  Then, I put the bike back up on its center stand and put the hose to the radiator cap to flush the coolant system.  Of course, water shot out of both drains, including some rusty water.  A number of tiny, sub-millimeter flakes stayed on the driveway when it drained down.  
I set it back on the center stand and flushed it with a gallon of distilled water, then drained it on the side stand again.
Then, I put both bolts back in and filled with distilled water, and ran the engine for a couple of minutes.  I was surprised that the water temperature was hot to the touch after running for such a short time.  I could still put my finger in the water without burning myself, but it was hotter than I could stand to keep my finger in.  I let the engine equalize and cool for about 10 minutes before putting it on its side stand and draining the water out.
Next, I re-installed both bolts and torqued them to specs (10nm for the water pump bolt and 13nm for the water jacket bolt).  I note that I really need to get a replacement water pump bolt because it's seen some cancer and I worry that one time it will break when I try to torque it.  I filled the engine and overflow with coolant (more than a half-gallon was required, more than 2 liters also), leaned the bike to the right to burp it, put it back on the center-stand, replaced the radiator cap, and started the engine to purge air bubbles.
As the engine warmed up, I got a few bubbles into the overflow tank, and pushed a fair amount of brand-new coolant out of the coolant tank onto my driveway.  I took it back off the center stand and leaned it to the right while giving it some throttle.  More bubbles.  Every time I gave it throttle, more bubbles.  I started worrying about a compression leak.  I walked back around to the left side, raised the kickstand, put it into gear, and gave it gentle throttle while exercising the clutch.  More bubbles.  Hmmm.
After it cooled and sucked the coolant tank down to its low-level mark, I put it back on the center stand and removed the radiator cap, expecting to find an air pocket underneath the cap, but it was completely full.
So...
- Do I have a hotspot on one of my cylinders that's causing the coolant to boil?- Do I have a compression leak into the water jacket?  I had one of these on my college car and it was a pain to work through.- Do I just still have some air in the cooling system?- Any other ideas?
Part of my concern about a compression leak is the dark cloudiness in the coolant.  I don't have water in my oil or oil in my water, but do I have soot in my water?
Replacing the head gasket would mean:- New head gasket- New exhaust gasket- New head bolts- New exhaust bolts- New water pump bolt while I'm at it- New spark plugs while I'm at it- Probably more fresh coolant- Probably an early oil change
Pulling the head would let me probe for and break up any rust deposits sitting around in the water jacket, but it's a lot of work for me to do right now.
Some of you have dealt with this before.  Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks,
- Dave
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Re: Burp

gandrews2
Hi Dave, Looks like it's time for a compression test, but that maybe a bit premature at this time. I'd give it a few more days of riding and see if the bubbles go away. It takes a couple of heat cycles to get all the air out of the system, if bubbles are still there yep compression test time. It those first 12 years of not changing the coolant that is the problem. The anti-rust properties of the antifreeze only last so long and then the dissimilar metals start to go after each other. The aluminum looses that fight. When I repaired my 1200 Trophy engine it was also neglected. The head had numerous pot holes in it. The welder had to fill in 9 spots and then the head was resurfaced. Lesson learned: Change the antifreeze every two years.
 I know the book says to put in new head bolts, but I haven't had any problems using the same bolts. Try not to move the liners, other wise you will need need to reseal them. It a little tight but the head can be removed and reinstalled while the engine is still in the frame. Good Luck.
 Greg Andrews
 98 Sprint
 96 1200 Trident
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Re: Burp

David Webb
 Hi Greg,
When I start my bike cold (usually when the relative humidity is high, and especially if I stick a couple of 4'-long 1/2" copper pipe into the exhaust to direct exhaust gases out of my garage) it often pushes visible water vapor out the exhaust until it warms up.  I just assumed that it was condensation in the exhaust steaming out.  Now I wonder if there may be a compression leak and possibly water pushing back into the cylinders.  I haven't experienced a hydro-lock though, so it can't be a lot of water.  I also haven't been losing water, so this might not be the case at all.

I have a compression tester from Harbor Freight that showed strong compression in cylinders 1 and 2 when I used it, but weak compression in 3 and 4.  I assumed that the tester only lasted 2 cylinders before overheating or having something go wrong.  Next time I do maintenance, I need to change the spark plugs, so a compression test is definitely in-order.
Thanks,
- Dave
    On Monday, July 22, 2019, 02:53:40 PM EDT, [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    
Hi Dave, Looks like it's time for a compression test, but that maybe a bit premature at this time.
I'd give it a few more days of riding and see if the bubbles go away. It takes a couple of heat cycles to get all the air out of the system, if bubbles are still there yep compression test time. It those first 12 years of not changing the coolant that is the problem. The anti-rust properties of the antifreeze only last so long and then the dissimilar metals start to go after each other. The aluminum looses that fight. When I repaired my 1200 Trophy engine it was also neglected. The head had numerous pot holes in it. The welder had to fill in 9 spots and then the head was resurfaced. Lesson learned: Change the antifreeze every two years. I know the book says to put in new head bolts, but I haven't had any problems using the same bolts. Try not to move the liners, other wise you will need need to reseal them. It a little tight but the head can be removed and reinstalled while the engine is still in the frame. Good Luck.Greg Andrews98 Sprint96 1200 Trident    
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Re: Burp

David Webb
In reply to this post by David Webb
I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo is shutting down groups.
Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.
The bike is back on the road.
I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally had, resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced the battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan override switch.
I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to 12-o'clock to assist in burping.
The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?
It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.
I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.
The thermostat opens at 180F. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It slowly creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start boiling because the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.
I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found strange..
1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only work well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through the cooling passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?
2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.
3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately brings the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is on.
4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.
Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?

I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.
I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put the thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder head, and I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided between top and bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a better design.
Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to be a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a separate brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use single diameter hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer, and reducer to radiator. I may need to also identify a thermostat that will fit easily between the reducer and radiator inlet.
Thanks, 
David Webb
+1 (972) 984-9503
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Re: Burp

Nigel Keating
David sorry to hear of your problems. Sounds like your head gasket has blown or your radiator is clogged. Whatever you think of the design they worked perfectly from new and mine still does although it’s only done 35 k miles. So it suggests to me something has gone wrong. The radiator doesn’t need a diverter. Water flows in one end and out the other. Have you checked what the flow is like if you put a hose in the bottom of the radiator and see how fast it comes out the top. Even then it doesn’t prove that all the tubes are clear. What is the radiator like on the outside. Can you see clearly through it to the other side. Too many people ignore the air flow requirement through the radiator.
Anything else you do is just treating the symptoms rather than the cause.
Best of luck.

Nigel
Sent from my iPhone

> On 10 Dec 2019, at 14:51, David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 
> I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo is shutting down groups.
>
>
> Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.
>
> The bike is back on the road.
>
> I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally had, resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced the battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan override switch.
>
> I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to 12-o'clock to assist in burping.
>
> The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?
>
> It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.
>
> I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.
>
> The thermostat opens at 180F. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It slowly creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start boiling because the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.
>
> I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found strange.
>
> 1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only work well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through the cooling passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?
>
> 2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.
>
> 3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately brings the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is on.
>
> 4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.
>
> Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?
>
> I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.
>
> I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put the thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder head, and I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided between top and bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a better design.
>
> Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to be a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a separate brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use single diameter hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer, and reducer to radiator.. I may need to also identify a thermostat that will fit easily between the reducer and radiator inlet.
>
> Thanks,
>  
> David Webb
> +1 (972) 984-9503
>
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Re: Burp

Ken Hastie
In reply to this post by David Webb

   
I'm still here LOLKen HastieSent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 - powered by EE

-------- Original message --------
From: "David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 10/12/2019  14:50  (GMT+00:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Burp












I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo is shutting down groups.Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.The bike is back on the road.I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally had, resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced the battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan override switch.I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to 12-o'clock to assist in burping.The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.The thermostat opens at 180F. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It slowly creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start boiling because the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found strange.1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only work well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through the cooling passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately brings the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is on.4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put the thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder head, and I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided between top and bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a better design.Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to be a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a separate brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use single diameter hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer, and reducer to radiator. I may need to also identify a thermostat that will fit easily between the reducer and radiator inlet.Thanks, David Webb+1 (972) 984-9503














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Re: Changes to Yahoo Groups (Was Burp)

Don Varnau
In reply to this post by David Webb
Basically, we’re becoming a listserve. Files are going away and the ability to read and post from https://groups.yahoo.com/neo  will be gone. People will be able to find the group and ask to join. Participation will be only via email.

Summary:https://help.yahoo.com/kb/groups/SLN31010.html?impressions=true 

Don
‘97 900

From: mailto:[hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 8:50 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Burp

I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo is shutting down groups.

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Re: Burp

David Webb
In reply to this post by Nigel Keating
 To the list, I received an email saying that Yahoo Groups isn't going away, but that the usage will change.  
Hi Nigel,
Back-flushing the radiator seems like such a good idea that I didn't even think of when I had the coolant out of the bike.  Now I'm going to need to pull it all back apart and do something smart. ;-)
From what I can tell, the head gasket isn't blown.  Here's why I think this:- If the head gasket were blown, then the coolant wouldn't boil so much as it would be displaced by exhaust gases.  I would have a little wet volcano under my seat, burning my inner thigh and when I removed the radiator cap, there would be noticeable coolant loss from the radiator.  My coolant in the overflow tank wouldn't be drawn back into the cooling system to replace what was lost due to displacement.- Instead, I see gas bubbles and coolant pushed into the overflow tank, but then drawn back down into the cooling system when the engine cools back down.  After replacing the coolant with Engine Ice and replacing the radiator cap, I see much less of this than I did before (except during one test when the cooling fan fuse had blown without my knowledge).
As you suggested, I think I might have a clogged radiator that just isn't cooling the engine properly when idling with the fan on.  This wouldn't surprise me too much because when I bought the 2002 bike in 2014, the coolant was rust-colored original orange coolant that appeared to have never been changed.  I've flushed the cooling system several times, but haven't back-flushed the radiator or tried to flow more water through it than the water pump would normally push.
My main complaint with the hoses is that they're so application-specific that it will be difficult to replace them.  I understand that there is a company in UK that will make new ones, but they're pricey.  It might be worth an attempt on my part to cobble together a multi-part cooling hose combination that will allow off-the-shelf hoses.
Thanks for the back-flush idea, I'm going to try it.  I also read that it might be a good idea to use vinegar to clean the radiator passages. Has anyone tried just capping off the lower radiator outlet and filling it with vinegar for a limited time?  I don't want to open a hole, but I would like to get any existing scale out.
- David Webb
    On Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:36:44 AM EST, Nigel Keating [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    
David sorry to hear of your problems. Sounds like your head gasket has blown or your radiator is clogged. Whatever you think of the design they worked perfectly from new and mine still does although it’s only done 35 k miles. So it suggests to me something has gone wrong. The radiator doesn’t need a diverter. Water flows in one end and out the other. Have you checked what the flow is like if you put a hose in the bottom of the radiator and see how fast it comes out the top. Even then it doesn’t prove that all the tubes are clear. What is the radiator like on the outside. Can you see clearly through it to the other side. Too many people ignore the air flow requirement through the radiator. 
Anything else you do is just treating the symptoms rather than the cause.Best of luck. 

NigelSent from my iPhone

On 10 Dec 2019, at 14:51, David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:



    
I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo is shutting down groups.

Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.
The bike is back on the road.
I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally had, resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced the battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan override switch.
I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to 12-o'clock to assist in burping.
The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?
It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.
I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.
The thermostat opens at 180F. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It slowly creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start boiling because the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.
I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found strange..
1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only work well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through the cooling passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?
2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.
3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately brings the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is on.
4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.
Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?

I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.
I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put the thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder head, and I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided between top and bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a better design.
Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to be a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a separate brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use single diameter hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer, and reducer to radiator. I may need to also identify a thermostat that will fit easily between the reducer and radiator inlet.
Thanks, 
David Webb
+1 (972) 984-9503

 
   
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Re: Burp

Rileysride
I've never been much of a contributor here...more like a sponge soaking up
all the great info that passes by.  It's always been a super source of
information.

May not need the info much longer...am planning on putting my '96 BBB up
for sale.  Turned 72 this year and not doing much riding...  Someone else
needs the opportunity to live the dream on a Triumph.

Steve Riley
Aiken, SC

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 9:15 AM David Webb [hidden email]
[TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> To the list, I received an email saying that Yahoo Groups isn't going
> away, but that the usage will change.
>
> Hi Nigel,
>
> Back-flushing the radiator seems like such a good idea that I didn't even
> think of when I had the coolant out of the bike.  Now I'm going to need to
> pull it all back apart and do something smart. ;-)
>
> From what I can tell, the head gasket isn't blown.  Here's why I think
> this:
> - If the head gasket were blown, then the coolant wouldn't boil so much as
> it would be displaced by exhaust gases.  I would have a little wet volcano
> under my seat, burning my inner thigh and when I removed the radiator cap,
> there would be noticeable coolant loss from the radiator.  My coolant in
> the overflow tank wouldn't be drawn back into the cooling system to replace
> what was lost due to displacement.
> - Instead, I see gas bubbles and coolant pushed into the overflow tank,
> but then drawn back down into the cooling system when the engine cools back
> down.  After replacing the coolant with Engine Ice and replacing the
> radiator cap, I see much less of this than I did before (except during one
> test when the cooling fan fuse had blown without my knowledge).
>
> As you suggested, I think I might have a clogged radiator that just isn't
> cooling the engine properly when idling with the fan on.  This wouldn't
> surprise me too much because when I bought the 2002 bike in 2014, the
> coolant was rust-colored original orange coolant that appeared to have
> never been changed.  I've flushed the cooling system several times, but
> haven't back-flushed the radiator or tried to flow more water through it
> than the water pump would normally push.
>
> My main complaint with the hoses is that they're so application-specific
> that it will be difficult to replace them.  I understand that there is a
> company in UK that will make new ones, but they're pricey.  It might be
> worth an attempt on my part to cobble together a multi-part cooling hose
> combination that will allow off-the-shelf hoses.
>
> Thanks for the back-flush idea, I'm going to try it.  I also read that it
> might be a good idea to use vinegar to clean the radiator passages. Has
> anyone tried just capping off the lower radiator outlet and filling it with
> vinegar for a limited time?  I don't want to open a hole, but I would like
> to get any existing scale out.
>
> - David Webb
>
> On Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:36:44 AM EST, Nigel Keating
> [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> David sorry to hear of your problems. Sounds like your head gasket has
> blown or your radiator is clogged. Whatever you think of the design they
> worked perfectly from new and mine still does although it’s only done 35 k
> miles. So it suggests to me something has gone wrong. The radiator doesn’t
> need a diverter. Water flows in one end and out the other. Have you checked
> what the flow is like if you put a hose in the bottom of the radiator and
> see how fast it comes out the top. Even then it doesn’t prove that all the
> tubes are clear. What is the radiator like on the outside. Can you see
> clearly through it to the other side. Too many people ignore the air flow
> requirement through the radiator.
> Anything else you do is just treating the symptoms rather than the cause.
> Best of luck.
>
> Nigel
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 10 Dec 2019, at 14:51, David Webb [hidden email]
> [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo
> is shutting down groups.
>
> Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.
>
> The bike is back on the road.
>
> I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice
> coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally had,
> resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced the
> battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan override
> switch.
>
> I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to
> 12-o'clock to assist in burping.
>
> The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?
>
> It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.
>
> I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water
> outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.
>
> The thermostat opens at 180F. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It slowly
> creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start boiling because
> the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.
>
> I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found
> strange.
>
> 1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only work
> well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through the cooling
> passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?
>
> 2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.
>
> 3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately brings
> the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is on.
>
> 4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.
>
> Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?
>
> I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.
>
> I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put the
> thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder head, and
> I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided between top and
> bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a better design.
>
> Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to be
> a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a separate
> brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use single diameter
> hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer, and reducer to
> radiator. I may need to also identify a thermostat that will fit easily
> between the reducer and radiator inlet.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David Webb
> +1 (972) 984-9503
>
>
>
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Re: Burp

Nigel Keating
In reply to this post by David Webb
David I agree it’s very unlikely to be the head gasket or even liner seals. Oil in water or water in oil usually make diagnosis easy. Unless only slightly blocked, radiators are very difficult to clean as when a tube becomes blocked, any chemical you use only penetrates the surface of the blockage. Any flushing just flows through the tubes that allow flow. Vinegar is supposed to work well as is sodium citrate but needs to be in for days to do very much. There are plenty of branded cleaners that you put in cold and then run the engine to temperature before flushing with water. I used to run a generator company before I retired and we had little success flushing radiators when blocked. Regular maintenance on the fins from the outside with a fan on the jet washer was effective. Dirt sucked through and clogging the fins was the number one cause of overheating problems. If a radiator was suspected of being blocked it was swapped out for re tubing. The Trophy throws all the muddy water from the front wheel at the radiator so it’s worth a look at that.
I’ve never heard of a water pump losing it’s vanes on a bike but I guess it’s possible. (They can errode away on high mileage engines if the coolant isn’t maintained). If you run the engine with the cap off and rev it the coolant should pour out the top which shows the pump is doing its job.
Thermostat failure is indicated by overheating but the radiator would still be cold but it sounds like you’ve already covered that.

Cheers,
Nigel
Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Dec 2019, at 14:17, David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 
> To the list, I received an email saying that Yahoo Groups isn't going away, but that the usage will change.  
>
> Hi Nigel,
>
> Back-flushing the radiator seems like such a good idea that I didn't even think of when I had the coolant out of the bike.  Now I'm going to need to pull it all back apart and do something smart. ;-)
>
> From what I can tell, the head gasket isn't blown.  Here's why I think this:
> - If the head gasket were blown, then the coolant wouldn't boil so much as it would be displaced by exhaust gases.  I would have a little wet volcano under my seat, burning my inner thigh and when I removed the radiator cap, there would be noticeable coolant loss from the radiator.  My coolant in the overflow tank wouldn't be drawn back into the cooling system to replace what was lost due to displacement.
> - Instead, I see gas bubbles and coolant pushed into the overflow tank, but then drawn back down into the cooling system when the engine cools back down.  After replacing the coolant with Engine Ice and replacing the radiator cap, I see much less of this than I did before (except during one test when the cooling fan fuse had blown without my knowledge).
>
> As you suggested, I think I might have a clogged radiator that just isn't cooling the engine properly when idling with the fan on.  This wouldn't surprise me too much because when I bought the 2002 bike in 2014, the coolant was rust-colored original orange coolant that appeared to have never been changed.  I've flushed the cooling system several times, but haven't back-flushed the radiator or tried to flow more water through it than the water pump would normally push.
>
> My main complaint with the hoses is that they're so application-specific that it will be difficult to replace them.  I understand that there is a company in UK that will make new ones, but they're pricey.  It might be worth an attempt on my part to cobble together a multi-part cooling hose combination that will allow off-the-shelf hoses.
>
> Thanks for the back-flush idea, I'm going to try it.  I also read that it might be a good idea to use vinegar to clean the radiator passages. Has anyone tried just capping off the lower radiator outlet and filling it with vinegar for a limited time?  I don't want to open a hole, but I would like to get any existing scale out.
>
> - David Webb
>
>> On Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:36:44 AM EST, Nigel Keating [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  
>> David sorry to hear of your problems. Sounds like your head gasket has blown or your radiator is clogged. Whatever you think of the design they worked perfectly from new and mine still does although it’s only done 35 k miles. So it suggests to me something has gone wrong. The radiator doesn’t need a diverter. Water flows in one end and out the other. Have you checked what the flow is like if you put a hose in the bottom of the radiator and see how fast it comes out the top. Even then it doesn’t prove that all the tubes are clear. What is the radiator like on the outside. Can you see clearly through it to the other side. Too many people ignore the air flow requirement through the radiator.
>>
>> Anything else you do is just treating the symptoms rather than the cause..
>> Best of luck.
>>
>> Nigel
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On 10 Dec 2019, at 14:51, David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>   
>> I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo is shutting down groups.
>>
>>
>> Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.
>>
>> The bike is back on the road.
>>
>> I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally had, resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced the battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan override switch.
>>
>> I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to 12-o'clock to assist in burping.
>>
>> The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?
>>
>> It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.
>>
>> I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.
>>
>> The thermostat opens at 180F. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It slowly creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start boiling because the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.
>>
>> I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found strange.
>>
>> 1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only work well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through the cooling passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?
>>
>> 2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.
>>
>> 3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately brings the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is on.
>>
>> 4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.
>>
>> Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?
>>
>> I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.
>>
>> I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put the thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder head, and I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided between top and bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a better design.
>>
>> Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to be a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a separate brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use single diameter hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer, and reducer to radiator. I may need to also identify a thermostat that will fit easily between the reducer and radiator inlet.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>  
>> David Webb
>> +1 (972) 984-9503
>
>
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Re: Burp

David Webb
In reply to this post by Rileysride
 Hi Steve,
I turned 50 this year and wonder when I'll need to downsize.  I still have a wish for something newer, lighter, and with a low center of gravity, but my Trophy has been so good to learn the ins and outs of motorcycle care.
Best of wishes to you and just a quick note:  
I know a friend who recently purchased a Piaggio Liberty 150 scooter as his first vehicle, and I had a chance to take it for a spin.  What fun!  It was to my bike what a razor scooter is to a bicycle. So nimble.  This particular bike has larger wheels, sacrificing storage space.  The wheels aren't as large as a Honda Super Cub, but it was super fun.
I mention this because my dad is in his late 70's and wishes he could still ride.  I remember the trips we went on riding his '78 GL1000 with Vetter Windjammer III fairing.  My youngest brother was in a seat that sat on the "tank" (airbox), I was behind my dad, and my oldest brother was behind my step-mother on her K900 with another Vetter Windjammer fairing.  I told him it was flickable.
He now has neuropathy in both legs and can't feel much. He'd like something like a Can-Am but step-through.
You're no-doubt in better shape, but even so, there are maybe some rides that might work.  The place that sold my friend the Liberty had a Piaggio MP3500 that didn't fit my friend's budget.  It's a highway-capable step-through scooter with 2 larger wheels up front and the ability to lock them in an upright position at low speeds.  I haven't ridden one, and neither has my friend, but it sounds super-interesting.
- Dave
    On Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 02:06:09 PM EST, Rileysride [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    

I've never been much of a contributor here...more like a sponge soaking up all the great info that passes by..  It's always been a super source of information.
May not need the info much longer...am planning on putting my '96 BBB up for sale.  Turned 72 this year and not doing much riding...  Someone else needs the opportunity to live the dream on a Triumph.
Steve RileyAiken, SC
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 9:15 AM David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:

    

 To the list, I received an email saying that Yahoo Groups isn't going away, but that the usage will change.  
Hi Nigel,
Back-flushing the radiator seems like such a good idea that I didn't even think of when I had the coolant out of the bike.  Now I'm going to need to pull it all back apart and do something smart. ;-)
From what I can tell, the head gasket isn't blown.  Here's why I think this:- If the head gasket were blown, then the coolant wouldn't boil so much as it would be displaced by exhaust gases.  I would have a little wet volcano under my seat, burning my inner thigh and when I removed the radiator cap, there would be noticeable coolant loss from the radiator.  My coolant in the overflow tank wouldn't be drawn back into the cooling system to replace what was lost due to displacement.- Instead, I see gas bubbles and coolant pushed into the overflow tank, but then drawn back down into the cooling system when the engine cools back down.  After replacing the coolant with Engine Ice and replacing the radiator cap, I see much less of this than I did before (except during one test when the cooling fan fuse had blown without my knowledge).
As you suggested, I think I might have a clogged radiator that just isn't cooling the engine properly when idling with the fan on.  This wouldn't surprise me too much because when I bought the 2002 bike in 2014, the coolant was rust-colored original orange coolant that appeared to have never been changed.  I've flushed the cooling system several times, but haven't back-flushed the radiator or tried to flow more water through it than the water pump would normally push.
My main complaint with the hoses is that they're so application-specific that it will be difficult to replace them.  I understand that there is a company in UK that will make new ones, but they're pricey.  It might be worth an attempt on my part to cobble together a multi-part cooling hose combination that will allow off-the-shelf hoses.
Thanks for the back-flush idea, I'm going to try it.  I also read that it might be a good idea to use vinegar to clean the radiator passages. Has anyone tried just capping off the lower radiator outlet and filling it with vinegar for a limited time?  I don't want to open a hole, but I would like to get any existing scale out.
- David Webb
    On Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:36:44 AM EST, Nigel Keating [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    
David sorry to hear of your problems. Sounds like your head gasket has blown or your radiator is clogged. Whatever you think of the design they worked perfectly from new and mine still does although it’s only done 35 k miles. So it suggests to me something has gone wrong. The radiator doesn’t need a diverter. Water flows in one end and out the other. Have you checked what the flow is like if you put a hose in the bottom of the radiator and see how fast it comes out the top. Even then it doesn’t prove that all the tubes are clear. What is the radiator like on the outside. Can you see clearly through it to the other side. Too many people ignore the air flow requirement through the radiator. 
Anything else you do is just treating the symptoms rather than the cause.Best of luck. 

NigelSent from my iPhone

On 10 Dec 2019, at 14:51, David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:



    
I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo is shutting down groups.

Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.
The bike is back on the road.
I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally had, resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced the battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan override switch.
I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to 12-o'clock to assist in burping.
The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?
It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.
I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.
The thermostat opens at 180F.. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It slowly creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start boiling because the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.
I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found strange..
1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only work well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through the cooling passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?
2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.
3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately brings the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is on.
4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.
Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?

I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.
I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put the thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder head, and I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided between top and bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a better design.
Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to be a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a separate brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use single diameter hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer, and reducer to radiator. I may need to also identify a thermostat that will fit easily between the reducer and radiator inlet.
Thanks, 
David Webb
+1 (972) 984-9503

 
   

   
   
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Re: was Burp, now Cork!

David Webb
In reply to this post by Nigel Keating
 Hi Nigel,
I haven't kept up, but just had the chance to work on my bike today for about 5 hours.  Here's what I did and why I changed the subject of this post.  I apologize for not taking photos.
I purchased the Haynes manual for the Trophy a few weeks ago, and needed it for this work...
Off came the lower and left fairings.Out came the coolant.Off came the upper and lower radiator hoses.Off came the visible bolts for the radiator.
It was still mounted. Out came the manuel, ripped unceremoniously from its shring-wrap.
So...Off came the right fairingI put the rock guard lower bolts back onI hand-screwed one of the top radiator bolts back inOut came the 4 lower radiator mounting boltsOff came the seatOff came the rear rack and top boxOff came the panniersOff came the rear fairingOff came the tankOff came the engine heat shieldsOff came the zip-ties holding the cooling fan wires and the cooling fan was unhooked (I re-routed the wires so I could do this again without needing to remove the tank)Off came the radiator and cooling fan.Off came the cooling fan from the radiator
Whew! That was 2 hours.While I was at it, I drilled a hole in the lower fairing spot where one of the tabs had broken off and used a stainless steel screw to re-mount the tab.  It worked. Sorry again for no photos.
I had a hose with a puncture, so I cut it to press up against the lower radiator outlet and back-flushed the radiator with a garden hose into a Rubbermaid tub. (no pictures)Not much came out.The radiator does have a divider midway down on the left side to separate the inlet and outlet sides.  The right tank of the radiator could conceivably catch a lot of junk.  I don't think this happened on mine and here's why...
I needed something to plug the radiator outlet so I could fill it with vinegar.  Guess what...  My wife had brought back wine from visiting our daughter in Asheville NC, so I had a spare Biltmore wine cork sitting in a drawer.  Biltmore fits in the lower outlet of the radiator.  Cork!
I filled the radiator with white vinegar with the Biltmore cork and sloshed it around, removing air and adding vinegar until I was sure it was full.  I hadn't read Nigel's post yet because I'm a doofus, so I didn't read that I might need to let it sit for days.  I let it sit for about 15 minutes and did a bunch of sloshing with the radiator cap on so the only outlet of vinegar was the radiator inlet.  I wish I had a picture of the Biltmore wine cork stuck in the outlet of my radiator.
Upon draining, not much came out, so I backflushed with hose water again and nothing extra came out.
Hmmm...
Maybe, just maybe, what I was able to remove was what was needed, or maybe something else was wrong.
I re-mounted the radiatorRe-attached the hosesRemoved the left dash panel (My fan switch is on the panel, so I just moved it aside.Took the jug that I'd put my new Engine Ice coolant in and a funnel and started refilling the radiator, burping by squeezing the upper hose periodically (I'm sure the burp hole I'd added to the thermostat helped)When the coolant wouldn't add any futhrer, I took the bike of fthe center stand, leaned it to the right, and burped it some more until all the coolant in the funnel was back in the radiator.
I knew at this point that I'd added nearly all the coolant that I'd removed, because I didn't lose much in the drain process. It was burped.
I settled the tank on top of its mounts and hooked up the right fuel line to the forward fuel tap outlet and hooked up the vacuum line to the wonderful vacuum elbow that I'd found at an auto parts store, then held up the left fuel line and added a temporary fuel line and funnel so I could re-fill the fuel lines and eliminate air bubbles.  With gasoline poured and air bubbles eliminated, I secured the left fuel line to the rear fuel tap outlet.
On went the tankOn went the rear fairing.  The re-mounted upper-left tank tab worked perfectly.On went the rack and top box.On went the panniersOn went the seat
Having re-routed the fan wiring, I no longer needed the tank or rear fairing off, but I still needed to test, so I started the bike.  It started fairly quickly since the fuel lines and carburetors were full, but not immediately because the carbs had gas in them that had cooked during cool-down and then gone stale while sitting the last month in the garage (ethanol-free).
I was paying attention to the temperature at the cylinder head outlet, not at the cooling fan switch, but here's what I found:
The switch came on at 115F and went off at 115F.The bike started to overheat at 122F last time, so I didn't give it the chance this time. I shut it off at 120.5F and let the cooling fan passively circulate coolant back through the engine until it was cooled down to under 115F (3 minutes).My manual cooling fan switch worked better than the automatic switch (thanks Samuel Crider).
On came the right fairingOn came the left fairingOn went the lower fairing
The bike started instantly and into the garage it went.
Here's what I think....
I think my cooling fan switch is inconsistent and coming on late.  I'm going to order a new one and will rely on my fan override switch (thanks Samuel) until it's in and installed.  I'll need to drain the coollant again, but this will only require removing the lower fairing, left fairing and left dash panels.
I think I'm safe to ride until it arrives, but need to manually manage the fan switch in traffic.
- Dave

    On Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 07:22:22 PM EST, Nigel Keating [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    
David I agree it’s very unlikely to be the head gasket or even liner seals. Oil in water or water in oil usually make diagnosis easy. Unless only slightly blocked, radiators are very difficult to clean as when a tube becomes blocked, any chemical you use only penetrates the surface of the blockage. Any flushing just flows through the tubes that allow flow. Vinegar is supposed to work well as is sodium citrate but needs to be in for days to do very much. There are plenty of branded cleaners that you put in cold and then run the engine to temperature before flushing with water. I used to run a generator company before I retired and we had little success flushing radiators when blocked. Regular maintenance on the fins from the outside with a fan on the jet washer was effective. Dirt sucked through and clogging the fins was the number one cause of overheating problems. If a radiator was suspected of being blocked it was swapped out for re tubing. The Trophy throws all the muddy water from the front wheel at the radiator so it’s worth a look at that. 
I’ve never heard of a water pump losing it’s vanes on a bike but I guess it’s possible. (They can errode away on high mileage engines if the coolant isn’t maintained). If you run the engine with the cap off and rev it the coolant should pour out the top which shows the pump is doing its job. Thermostat failure is indicated by overheating but the radiator would still be cold but it sounds like you’ve already covered that. 
Cheers,
NigelSent from my iPhone

On 11 Dec 2019, at 14:17, David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:



    

 To the list, I received an email saying that Yahoo Groups isn't going away, but that the usage will change.  
Hi Nigel,
Back-flushing the radiator seems like such a good idea that I didn't even think of when I had the coolant out of the bike.  Now I'm going to need to pull it all back apart and do something smart. ;-)
From what I can tell, the head gasket isn't blown.  Here's why I think this:- If the head gasket were blown, then the coolant wouldn't boil so much as it would be displaced by exhaust gases.  I would have a little wet volcano under my seat, burning my inner thigh and when I removed the radiator cap, there would be noticeable coolant loss from the radiator.  My coolant in the overflow tank wouldn't be drawn back into the cooling system to replace what was lost due to displacement.- Instead, I see gas bubbles and coolant pushed into the overflow tank, but then drawn back down into the cooling system when the engine cools back down.  After replacing the coolant with Engine Ice and replacing the radiator cap, I see much less of this than I did before (except during one test when the cooling fan fuse had blown without my knowledge).
As you suggested, I think I might have a clogged radiator that just isn't cooling the engine properly when idling with the fan on.  This wouldn't surprise me too much because when I bought the 2002 bike in 2014, the coolant was rust-colored original orange coolant that appeared to have never been changed.  I've flushed the cooling system several times, but haven't back-flushed the radiator or tried to flow more water through it than the water pump would normally push.
My main complaint with the hoses is that they're so application-specific that it will be difficult to replace them.  I understand that there is a company in UK that will make new ones, but they're pricey.  It might be worth an attempt on my part to cobble together a multi-part cooling hose combination that will allow off-the-shelf hoses.
Thanks for the back-flush idea, I'm going to try it.  I also read that it might be a good idea to use vinegar to clean the radiator passages. Has anyone tried just capping off the lower radiator outlet and filling it with vinegar for a limited time?  I don't want to open a hole, but I would like to get any existing scale out.
- David Webb
    On Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:36:44 AM EST, Nigel Keating [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
    
David sorry to hear of your problems. Sounds like your head gasket has blown or your radiator is clogged. Whatever you think of the design they worked perfectly from new and mine still does although it’s only done 35 k miles. So it suggests to me something has gone wrong. The radiator doesn’t need a diverter. Water flows in one end and out the other. Have you checked what the flow is like if you put a hose in the bottom of the radiator and see how fast it comes out the top. Even then it doesn’t prove that all the tubes are clear. What is the radiator like on the outside. Can you see clearly through it to the other side. Too many people ignore the air flow requirement through the radiator. 
Anything else you do is just treating the symptoms rather than the cause.Best of luck. 

NigelSent from my iPhone

On 10 Dec 2019, at 14:51, David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:



    
I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that Yahoo is shutting down groups.

Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.
The bike is back on the road.
I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally had, resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced the battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan override switch.
I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to 12-o'clock to assist in burping.
The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?
It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.
I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.
The thermostat opens at 180F. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It slowly creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start boiling because the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.
I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found strange..
1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only work well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through the cooling passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?
2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.
3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately brings the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is on.
4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.
Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?

I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.
I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put the thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder head, and I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided between top and bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a better design.
Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to be a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a separate brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use single diameter hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer, and reducer to radiator. I may need to also identify a thermostat that will fit easily between the reducer and radiator inlet.
Thanks, 
David Webb
+1 (972) 984-9503

 
   

 
   
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Re: was Burp, now Cork!

apsllp@bellsouth.net
Check your water pump impeller.

Bob Clark

⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​

On Dec 27, 2019, 8:09 PM, at 8:09 PM, "David Webb [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Nigel,
>I haven't kept up, but just had the chance to work on my bike today for
>about 5 hours.  Here's what I did and why I changed the subject of this
>post.  I apologize for not taking photos.
>I purchased the Haynes manual for the Trophy a few weeks ago, and
>needed it for this work...
>Off came the lower and left fairings.Out came the coolant.Off came the
>upper and lower radiator hoses.Off came the visible bolts for the
>radiator.
>It was still mounted. Out came the manuel, ripped unceremoniously from
>its shring-wrap.
>So...Off came the right fairingI put the rock guard lower bolts back
>onI hand-screwed one of the top radiator bolts back inOut came the 4
>lower radiator mounting boltsOff came the seatOff came the rear rack
>and top boxOff came the panniersOff came the rear fairingOff came the
>tankOff came the engine heat shieldsOff came the zip-ties holding the
>cooling fan wires and the cooling fan was unhooked (I re-routed the
>wires so I could do this again without needing to remove the tank)Off
>came the radiator and cooling fan.Off came the cooling fan from the
>radiator
>Whew! That was 2 hours.While I was at it, I drilled a hole in the lower
>fairing spot where one of the tabs had broken off and used a stainless
>steel screw to re-mount the tab.  It worked. Sorry again for no photos.
>I had a hose with a puncture, so I cut it to press up against the lower
>radiator outlet and back-flushed the radiator with a garden hose into a
>Rubbermaid tub. (no pictures)Not much came out.The radiator does have a
>divider midway down on the left side to separate the inlet and outlet
>sides.  The right tank of the radiator could conceivably catch a lot of
>junk.  I don't think this happened on mine and here's why...
>I needed something to plug the radiator outlet so I could fill it with
>vinegar.  Guess what...  My wife had brought back wine from visiting
>our daughter in Asheville NC, so I had a spare Biltmore wine cork
>sitting in a drawer.  Biltmore fits in the lower outlet of the
>radiator.  Cork!
>I filled the radiator with white vinegar with the Biltmore cork and
>sloshed it around, removing air and adding vinegar until I was sure it
>was full.  I hadn't read Nigel's post yet because I'm a doofus, so I
>didn't read that I might need to let it sit for days.  I let it sit for
>about 15 minutes and did a bunch of sloshing with the radiator cap on
>so the only outlet of vinegar was the radiator inlet.  I wish I had a
>picture of the Biltmore wine cork stuck in the outlet of my radiator.
>Upon draining, not much came out, so I backflushed with hose water
>again and nothing extra came out.
>Hmmm...
>Maybe, just maybe, what I was able to remove was what was needed, or
>maybe something else was wrong.
>I re-mounted the radiatorRe-attached the hosesRemoved the left dash
>panel (My fan switch is on the panel, so I just moved it aside.Took the
>jug that I'd put my new Engine Ice coolant in and a funnel and started
>refilling the radiator, burping by squeezing the upper hose
>periodically (I'm sure the burp hole I'd added to the thermostat
>helped)When the coolant wouldn't add any futhrer, I took the bike of
>fthe center stand, leaned it to the right, and burped it some more
>until all the coolant in the funnel was back in the radiator.
>I knew at this point that I'd added nearly all the coolant that I'd
>removed, because I didn't lose much in the drain process. It was
>burped.
>I settled the tank on top of its mounts and hooked up the right fuel
>line to the forward fuel tap outlet and hooked up the vacuum line to
>the wonderful vacuum elbow that I'd found at an auto parts store, then
>held up the left fuel line and added a temporary fuel line and funnel
>so I could re-fill the fuel lines and eliminate air bubbles.  With
>gasoline poured and air bubbles eliminated, I secured the left fuel
>line to the rear fuel tap outlet.
>On went the tankOn went the rear fairing.  The re-mounted upper-left
>tank tab worked perfectly.On went the rack and top box.On went the
>panniersOn went the seat
>Having re-routed the fan wiring, I no longer needed the tank or rear
>fairing off, but I still needed to test, so I started the bike.  It
>started fairly quickly since the fuel lines and carburetors were full,
>but not immediately because the carbs had gas in them that had cooked
>during cool-down and then gone stale while sitting the last month in
>the garage (ethanol-free).
>I was paying attention to the temperature at the cylinder head outlet,
>not at the cooling fan switch, but here's what I found:
>The switch came on at 115F and went off at 115F.The bike started to
>overheat at 122F last time, so I didn't give it the chance this time. I
>shut it off at 120.5F and let the cooling fan passively circulate
>coolant back through the engine until it was cooled down to under 115F
>(3 minutes).My manual cooling fan switch worked better than the
>automatic switch (thanks Samuel Crider).
>On came the right fairingOn came the left fairingOn went the lower
>fairing
>The bike started instantly and into the garage it went.
>Here's what I think....
>I think my cooling fan switch is inconsistent and coming on late.  I'm
>going to order a new one and will rely on my fan override switch
>(thanks Samuel) until it's in and installed.  I'll need to drain the
>coollant again, but this will only require removing the lower fairing,
>left fairing and left dash panels.
>I think I'm safe to ride until it arrives, but need to manually manage
>the fan switch in traffic.
>- Dave
>
>On Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 07:22:22 PM EST, Nigel Keating
>[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]>
>wrote:  
>
>    
>David I agree it’s very unlikely to be the head gasket or even liner
>seals. Oil in water or water in oil usually make diagnosis easy. Unless
>only slightly blocked, radiators are very difficult to clean as when a
>tube becomes blocked, any chemical you use only penetrates the surface
>of the blockage. Any flushing just flows through the tubes that allow
>flow. Vinegar is supposed to work well as is sodium citrate but needs
>to be in for days to do very much. There are plenty of branded cleaners
>that you put in cold and then run the engine to temperature before
>flushing with water. I used to run a generator company before I retired
>and we had little success flushing radiators when blocked. Regular
>maintenance on the fins from the outside with a fan on the jet washer
>was effective. Dirt sucked through and clogging the fins was the number
>one cause of overheating problems. If a radiator was suspected of being
>blocked it was swapped out for re tubing. The Trophy throws all the
>muddy water from the front wheel at the radiator so it’s worth a look
>at that. 
>I’ve never heard of a water pump losing it’s vanes on a bike but I
>guess it’s possible. (They can errode away on high mileage engines if
>the coolant isn’t maintained). If you run the engine with the cap off
>and rev it the coolant should pour out the top which shows the pump is
>doing its job. Thermostat failure is indicated by overheating but the
>radiator would still be cold but it sounds like you’ve already covered
>that. 
>Cheers,
>NigelSent from my iPhone
>
>On 11 Dec 2019, at 14:17, David Webb [hidden email]
>[TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>    
>
>To the list, I received an email saying that Yahoo Groups isn't going
>away, but that the usage will change.  
>Hi Nigel,
>Back-flushing the radiator seems like such a good idea that I didn't
>even think of when I had the coolant out of the bike.  Now I'm going to
>need to pull it all back apart and do something smart. ;-)
>From what I can tell, the head gasket isn't blown.  Here's why I think
>this:- If the head gasket were blown, then the coolant wouldn't boil so
>much as it would be displaced by exhaust gases.  I would have a little
>wet volcano under my seat, burning my inner thigh and when I removed
>the radiator cap, there would be noticeable coolant loss from the
>radiator.  My coolant in the overflow tank wouldn't be drawn back into
>the cooling system to replace what was lost due to displacement.-
>Instead, I see gas bubbles and coolant pushed into the overflow tank,
>but then drawn back down into the cooling system when the engine cools
>back down.  After replacing the coolant with Engine Ice and replacing
>the radiator cap, I see much less of this than I did before (except
>during one test when the cooling fan fuse had blown without my
>knowledge).
>As you suggested, I think I might have a clogged radiator that just
>isn't cooling the engine properly when idling with the fan on.  This
>wouldn't surprise me too much because when I bought the 2002 bike in
>2014, the coolant was rust-colored original orange coolant that
>appeared to have never been changed.  I've flushed the cooling system
>several times, but haven't back-flushed the radiator or tried to flow
>more water through it than the water pump would normally push.
>My main complaint with the hoses is that they're so
>application-specific that it will be difficult to replace them.  I
>understand that there is a company in UK that will make new ones, but
>they're pricey.  It might be worth an attempt on my part to cobble
>together a multi-part cooling hose combination that will allow
>off-the-shelf hoses.
>Thanks for the back-flush idea, I'm going to try it.  I also read that
>it might be a good idea to use vinegar to clean the radiator passages.
>Has anyone tried just capping off the lower radiator outlet and filling
>it with vinegar for a limited time?  I don't want to open a hole, but I
>would like to get any existing scale out.
>- David Webb
>On Tuesday, December 10, 2019, 10:36:44 AM EST, Nigel Keating
>[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]>
>wrote:  
>
>    
>David sorry to hear of your problems. Sounds like your head gasket has
>blown or your radiator is clogged. Whatever you think of the design
>they worked perfectly from new and mine still does although it’s only
>done 35 k miles. So it suggests to me something has gone wrong. The
>radiator doesn’t need a diverter. Water flows in one end and out the
>other. Have you checked what the flow is like if you put a hose in the
>bottom of the radiator and see how fast it comes out the top. Even then
>it doesn’t prove that all the tubes are clear. What is the radiator
>like on the outside. Can you see clearly through it to the other side.
>Too many people ignore the air flow requirement through the radiator. 
>Anything else you do is just treating the symptoms rather than the
>cause.Best of luck. 
>
>NigelSent from my iPhone
>
>On 10 Dec 2019, at 14:51, David Webb [hidden email]
>[TriumphTrophy] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>    
>I'm testing to see if this group still works, since I've read that
>Yahoo is shutting down groups.
>
>Here's and update on my cooling troubleshooting.
>The bike is back on the road.
>I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap, switched to Engine Ice
>coolant, went back to the cooler spark plugs that my bike originally
>had, resolved a lean condition caused by clogged fuel filters, replaced
>the battery, checked the compression, and installed a cooling fan
>override switch.
>I also drilled a small vent hole in the thermostat and indexed it to
>12-o'clock to assist in burping.
>The thermostat doesn't fit in the neck of the radiator. Is this normal?
>It will still overheat if allowed to idle for 20+ minutes.
>I measured the temperature using a thermometer gun aimed at the water
>outlet at the top left of the cylinder head.
>The thermostat opens at 180F. The cooling fan comes on at 210F. It
>slowly creeps up to 220F after that, the coolant appears to start
>boiling because the temperature begins to climb more rapidly.
>I noticed a few things about the cooling system design that I found
>strange..
>1. The radiator inlet and outlet are on the same side. This will only
>work well if there is a diverter halfway down to force water through
>the cooling passages. Does the radiator have a diverter?
>2 The bypass hose appears to carry a lot of flow.
>3. Spraying the radiator with water from a garden hose immediately
>brings the engine temperature back down to 180f if the cooling fan is
>on.
>4. The water pump works although I can't say whether it's optimal.
>Do I have a clogged radiator or a hole in a diverter?
>
>I can ride it as long as I don't get stuck in traffic.
>I would do this differently. If I could redo it from scratch, I'd put
>the thermostat and bypass in a cast housing on top of the cylinder
>head, and I'd make the radiator a full-flow unit instead of divided
>between top and bottom halves. I looked at a new Tiger 1200 and it's a
>better design.
>Since that's not and option, I think that main cooling hose is going to
>be a problem. I'm going to start looking for a brass reducer and a
>separate brass tee to go in front of it. This will allow me to use
>single diameter hoses for the engine outlet, bypass, tee to reducer,
>and reducer to radiator. I may need to also identify a thermostat that
>will fit easily between the reducer and radiator inlet.
>Thanks, 
>David Webb
>+1 (972) 984-9503
>
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