1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
Thanks Glenn .. I will let you know what I find Friday when I remove the sprockets. The Triumph manual says the drive sprocket can go on either way .. just the rear one has an order of install.
Jason 

      From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues
   
    Hi Glenn,I'm not sure any more if it is the clutch; if it is Greg has kindly offered to help me out with spares. 

I've removed everything to expose the drive sprocket. A confession I must make is that the last time I replaced the chain about 11,000 km ago Triumph sent me the wrong sprockets so I returned them and did get replacements ... however I used the old ones and just flipped the drive sprocket over to change the load side since it was taking too long.   
I've got company coming for the next few days so need to pause my work .. here are a few pictures of what I found so far ; all original except that I did bend back the tab on the bolt holding the sprocket. Can't see anything myself to indicate the issue. Maybe you can?
I'm planning to try the new sprockets to see if that fixes it next. Interested in knowing if you have other ideas of what I should also check. 
CheersJason
Hi Jason,
I'm glad Greg is watching this, too. I don't think it's the sprockets. My first thought when you mentioned turning them over was the offset, but they've been working fine for 11,000 kms. If there was an offset issue you would at minimum hear a "singing" from the chain right away. Still, since it is apart, you may as well put the new sprockets on now.
I'm still not completely giving up on it being clutch related simply due to the timing of the event (unless my memory has failed me again!). I can't remember, do our bikes have a slipper clutch. My Honda's do/did, but I can't remember about the Trophy. If so, it is easy to assemble the pieces out of sequence. Just a thought.
The other thought is still the cush rubbers or drive hub issue maybe.
Enjoy your time with your visitors!
Cheers,Glenn  #yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052 -- #yiv4749710052ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-mkp #yiv4749710052hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-mkp #yiv4749710052ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-mkp .yiv4749710052ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-mkp .yiv4749710052ad p {margin:0;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-mkp .yiv4749710052ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-sponsor #yiv4749710052ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-sponsor #yiv4749710052ygrp-lc #yiv4749710052hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv4749710052 #yiv4749710052ygrp-sponsor #yiv4749710052ygrp-lc .yiv4749710052ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [8 Attachments]

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list

Hi Glenn,
Sadly I found nothing wrong ... the sprocket tab  washer looks bad but as I recall I had a bitch of a time taking it off last time so I'm thinking the impact air driver must have done those marks.
The sprocket and nut were put on correctly from what I can see (Washer first that makes everything flush with the spline portion of the shaft) Then nut with cup side first so that pressure is only on the sprocket and washer - not on the spline. It came off easy enough with the air gun .. too tight to get off with the breaker bar ratchet .. so I'm thinking no slippage there.
There is no play side to side on either sprockets or the rear wheel .. everything seems properly aligned. Nothing that can account for that noise I get in first / or reluctant engagement.  
One other small piece of info which might just confuse things more is that I recall I may have spun the rear tire in reverse by hand with the transmission in gear after refilling the engine with oil to remove my block of wood on the rear wheel.  I realize I should have put bike back in neutral ...I did hear a clunk ... but cant see how this could have done any harm? 

As for your question as to if it is a slipper clutch ... I would not know how to tell. I did put everything back in the order specified in the Triumph manual with the added attention of putting smooth side of all plates towards the engine. However there is no way I can tell if the exact plate went back in its original position. I've included more pictures .. Really at a loss now on what to do next. I will replace both sprockets with my new ones but really cant see why this will resolve anything.    

Jason

     .  
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [2 Attachments]

Triumph Trophy mailing list
"Hi Glenn,
 

 Sadly I found nothing wrong ... the sprocket tab  washer looks bad but as I recall I had a bitch of a time taking it off last time so I'm thinking the impact air driver must have done those marks.
 

 The sprocket and nut were put on correctly from what I can see (Washer first that makes everything flush with the spline portion of the shaft) Then nut with cup side first so that pressure is only on the sprocket and washer - not on the spline. It came off easy enough with the air gun .. too tight to get off with the breaker bar ratchet .. so I'm thinking no slippage there.
 

 There is no play side to side on either sprockets or the rear wheel .. everything seems properly aligned. Nothing that can account for that noise I get in first / or reluctant engagement.  
 

 One other small piece of info which might just confuse things more is that I recall I may have spun the rear tire in reverse by hand with the transmission in gear after refilling the engine with oil to remove my block of wood on the rear wheel.  I realize I should have put bike back in neutral ...I did hear a clunk ... but cant see how this could have done any harm?

 

 As for your question as to if it is a slipper clutch ... I would not know how to tell. I did put everything back in the order specified in the Triumph manual with the added attention of putting smooth side of all plates towards the engine. However there is no way I can tell if the exact plate went back in its original position.
 
 I've included more pictures .. Really at a loss now on what to do next. I will replace both sprockets with my new ones but really cant see why this will resolve anything.    

 





Jason"
 

 Hi Jason,
 

 I really don't know either. It is generally accepted that bike engines - all engines really - should not be turned backwards. The fear is messing up the camchain/tensioner/cam timing. Hard to believe moving it back just enough to get the block of wood out could hurt it.
 

 What is all that green stuff? I don't think there should be coolant there. Mine only had oil there.
 

 The manual is kind of vague on exactly where in the stack the anti-judder plate goes. Maybe someone here might have a definite answer on that? Anyone?
 

 I still have the nagging question in my mind about the cush drive.
 

 There are other folks here with vastly more experience than us. I really hope someone can offer their thoughts, too.
 

 I have attached a couple of pictures.
 

 Cheers,
 Glenn




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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Glenn,Thanks for the photos .. great memories ... 
The green look is from the full synthetic Motul V 300 factory line 15W50 I use in the bike ... its a premium racing oil that has that green tinge when fresh .. the camera seems to exaggerate  that shade. I use that oil since it runs clean and offers better lubrication. So its not coolant . This oil only had about 50 km on it from my last test drive so is very fresh.
The engine runs strong so I did not mess up the timing .. so that part of turning the engine did nothing. What about turning the transmission backwards?
One question .. about the clutch assembly ... OK the washer is marked with the outside clearly identified but why is the bolt holding everything back different ? One side is flat and the other is flared ... no mention of which side goes toward the washer in the Triumph manual ... does anyone know? The last assembly I put the flat side toward the engine. Maybe that is wrong? Cant see why the orientation of the washer is so important; although I followed the direction. What is the function?  I understand the nut on the drive sprocket to secure the sprocket independent of the spline on the drive shaft .. but the clutch I cant figure out. Is this my issue?
I am completely baffled ... although sometimes does not take much LOL. Soon I will be looking for a double decker  bus ... 
Jason 

   

   From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 9:07 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [2 Attachments]
 
    [Attachment(s) from [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy] included below] "Hi Glenn,
Sadly I found nothing wrong ... the sprocket tab  washer looks bad but as I recall I had a bitch of a time taking it off last time so I'm thinking the impact air driver must have done those marks.
The sprocket and nut were put on correctly from what I can see (Washer first that makes everything flush with the spline portion of the shaft) Then nut with cup side first so that pressure is only on the sprocket and washer - not on the spline. It came off easy enough with the air gun .. too tight to get off with the breaker bar ratchet .. so I'm thinking no slippage there.
There is no play side to side on either sprockets or the rear wheel .. everything seems properly aligned. Nothing that can account for that noise I get in first / or reluctant engagement.  
One other small piece of info which might just confuse things more is that I recall I may have spun the rear tire in reverse by hand with the transmission in gear after refilling the engine with oil to remove my block of wood on the rear wheel.  I realize I should have put bike back in neutral ...I did hear a clunk ... but cant see how this could have done any harm? 

As for your question as to if it is a slipper clutch ... I would not know how to tell. I did put everything back in the order specified in the Triumph manual with the added attention of putting smooth side of all plates towards the engine. However there is no way I can tell if the exact plate went back in its original position. I've included more pictures .. Really at a loss now on what to do next. I will replace both sprockets with my new ones but really cant see why this will resolve anything.    

Jason"
Hi Jason,
I really don't know either. It is generally accepted that bike engines - all engines really - should not be turned backwards. The fear is messing up the camchain/tensioner/cam timing. Hard to believe moving it back just enough to get the block of wood out could hurt it.
What is all that green stuff? I don't think there should be coolant there. Mine only had oil there.
The manual is kind of vague on exactly where in the stack the anti-judder plate goes. Maybe someone here might have a definite answer on that? Anyone?
I still have the nagging question in my mind about the cush drive.
There are other folks here with vastly more experience than us. I really hope someone can offer their thoughts, too.
I have attached a couple of pictures.
Cheers,Glenn  #yiv6033148043 -- #yiv6033148043ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-mkp #yiv6033148043hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-mkp #yiv6033148043ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-mkp .yiv6033148043ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-mkp .yiv6033148043ad p {margin:0;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-mkp .yiv6033148043ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-sponsor #yiv6033148043ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-sponsor #yiv6033148043ygrp-lc #yiv6033148043hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv6033148043 #yiv6033148043ygrp-sponsor #yiv6033148043ygrp-lc .yiv6033148043ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv6033148043 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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [2 Attachments]

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Hi Glenn,Another couple of pictures from the clutch slave master cylinder ... don't know if that black looking grease like substance is significant or not ... 
I'm also thinking of looking at the clutch plates again , one by one. Really would like to know the significance of that last washer as well as the retaining bolt shape .. flat side on the washer or reduced side on washer .. why is it not just a regular nut? How would that affect engagement of the gears?
Still my fear is that the grinding sound maybe from the transmission. There are some holes on the side of the gear shift that I'm wondering if I could get an inspection camera inside to have a look ? I found one for $30 on line that connects to a laptop PC. Might do a little research on this way to inspect what's going on inside before pulling out the engine (something that I really don't want to tackle unless absolutely sure is needed) .
Really hope to find something I can correct before putting everything back together again . As for the turning of the engine backward ... I may have turned it more than just enough to remove the wood.  Still why would that cause a transmission issue?
Thanks for all your help ...  
Jason

     
     .  
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
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Considering the hydraulic fluid used to actuate the clutch cylinders is BRAKE fluid. 
I'd say that black looking crud should not be there. There's is a reason the fluid should be changed regularly.  It is VERY Hygroscopic !
Bob Clark
-------- Original message --------From: "Jason Hart [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]> Date: 6/24/17  1:44 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [2 Attachments]

 



 


   
     
             
        [Attachment(s) from Jason Hart included below]
       
     
      Hi Glenn,Another couple of pictures from the clutch slave master cylinder ... don't know if that black looking grease like substance is significant or not ... 
I'm also thinking of looking at the clutch plates again , one by one. Really would like to know the significance of that last washer as well as the retaining bolt shape .. flat side on the washer or reduced side on washer .. why is it not just a regular nut? How would that affect engagement of the gears?
Still my fear is that the grinding sound maybe from the transmission. There are some holes on the side of the gear shift that I'm wondering if I could get an inspection camera inside to have a look ? I found one for $30 on line that connects to a laptop PC. Might do a little research on this way to inspect what's going on inside before pulling out the engine (something that I really don't want to tackle unless absolutely sure is needed) .
Really hope to find something I can correct before putting everything back together again . As for the turning of the engine backward ... I may have turned it more than just enough to remove the wood.  Still why would that cause a transmission!
  issue?
Thanks for all your help ...  
Jason

     




   

 
 
 
 



     




     

  .


   


 






   

   
     

   
   


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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
"Hi Glenn, Another couple of pictures from the clutch slave master cylinder ... don't know if that black looking grease like substance is significant or not ...
 

 I'm also thinking of looking at the clutch plates again , one by one. Really would like to know the significance of that last washer as well as the retaining bolt shape .. flat side on the washer or reduced side on washer .. why is it not just a regular nut? How would that affect engagement of the gears?
 

 Still my fear is that the grinding sound maybe from the transmission. There are some holes on the side of the gear shift that I'm wondering if I could get an inspection camera inside to have a look ? I found one for $30 on line that connects to a laptop PC. Might do a little research on this way to inspect what's going on inside before pulling out the engine (something that I really don't want to tackle unless absolutely sure is needed) .
 

 Really hope to find something I can correct before putting everything back together again . As for the turning of the engine backward ... I may have turned it more than just enough to remove the wood.  Still why would that cause a transmission issue?
 

 Thanks for all your help ...  
 

 Jason"
 

 Hi Jason,
 

 That stuff on the slave cylinder piston is normal That is the dab of grease that is put there for the pushrod when it is assembled.
 

 I haven't had mine apart. I only have 106,000 kms, so hopefully good for a while yet. What manual are you working with? I have both the Factory one and either a Haynes or Clymer on the computer. The factory one doesn't mention any retaining bolts except for the 5 pressure plate ones holding the springs. The large centre retention fastener is a nut. Maybe yours being an early model it has a bolt? It does specify a specific sequence for the shims and washers. I can post screenshots of the clutch section if that is not the manual you're using.
 

 I can't see a bit of reverse rotation causing that sort of damage to the transmission.
 

 I'm sorry I don't have better answers.
 

 Glenn
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
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Thanks Bob, my fluid is changed regularly and is clear. I might have put some grease on the rod when I changed my chain the last time and took off the drive sprocket .. I will clean it before assembly.
I do appreciate everyone's feed back .. still looking for an answer to the significance of the nut and washer on the clutch baskets .. other than the washer orientation there is nothing mentioned on why the nut is not the same on both sides? Does any one know?
As to the issue it now seems to be two things ... the first gear is not properly engaging (and from Greg's comment I realize)  that the familiar clunk when proper engagement of first gear does not always occur .. instead I get that grinding sound and slipping of the drive sprocket sound (as if only partly turning). This happens only in first and only when the transmission is hot. 
The other issue which may or may not be related is a momentary slip and rapid re engagement which can happen in any gear (maybe this is clutch related?)  and is the reason I would like to know the correct orientation of that nut.  I only checked a few plates for wear .. although all looked about the same .. I only measured one with the calipers. I'm going to undo this side again and measure them all I guess ...  
Really need an expert on transmission ... I never see this issue on our site .. but then no one reported a loose balancer ...  
Jason      From: "apsllp [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 2:54 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues
   
    Considering the hydraulic fluid used to actuate the clutch cylinders is BRAKE fluid. 
I'd say that black looking crud should not be there. There's is a reason the fluid should be changed regularly.  It is VERY Hygroscopic !
Bob Clark
-------- Original message --------From: "Jason Hart [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]> Date: 6/24/17 1:44 PM (GMT-05:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [2 Attachments]
   Hi Glenn,Another couple of pictures from the clutch slave master cylinder ... don't know if that black looking grease like substance is significant or not ... 
I'm also thinking of looking at the clutch plates again , one by one. Really would like to know the significance of that last washer as well as the retaining bolt shape .. flat side on the washer or reduced side on washer .. why is it not just a regular nut? How would that affect engagement of the gears?
Still my fear is that the grinding sound maybe from the transmission. There are some holes on the side of the gear shift that I'm wondering if I could get an inspection camera inside to have a look ? I found one for $30 on line that connects to a laptop PC. Might do a little research on this way to inspect what's going on inside before pulling out the engine (something that I really don't want to tackle unless absolutely sure is needed) .
Really hope to find something I can correct before putting everything back together again . As for the turning of the engine backward ... I may have turned it more than just enough to remove the wood.  Still why would that cause a transmission! issue?
Thanks for all your help ...  
Jason

     
     .  
 

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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi GlennMy bad choice of words ... it is a nut not a bolt. And the only manual I have is the Triumph Factory version. If the other manuals tell a better story on what is significant on the shape of this nut ... please share.
Best Regards Jason 

      From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 4:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues
   
    "Hi Glenn,Another couple of pictures from the clutch slave master cylinder ... don't know if that black looking grease like substance is significant or not ... 
I'm also thinking of looking at the clutch plates again , one by one. Really would like to know the significance of that last washer as well as the retaining bolt shape .. flat side on the washer or reduced side on washer .. why is it not just a regular nut? How would that affect engagement of the gears?
Still my fear is that the grinding sound maybe from the transmission. There are some holes on the side of the gear shift that I'm wondering if I could get an inspection camera inside to have a look ? I found one for $30 on line that connects to a laptop PC. Might do a little research on this way to inspect what's going on inside before pulling out the engine (something that I really don't want to tackle unless absolutely sure is needed) .
Really hope to find something I can correct before putting everything back together again . As for the turning of the engine backward ... I may have turned it more than just enough to remove the wood.  Still why would that cause a transmission issue?
Thanks for all your help ...  
Jason"
Hi Jason,
That stuff on the slave cylinder piston is normal That is the dab of grease that is put there for the pushrod when it is assembled.
I haven't had mine apart. I only have 106,000 kms, so hopefully good for a while yet. What manual are you working with? I have both the Factory one and either a Haynes or Clymer on the computer. The factory one doesn't mention any retaining bolts except for the 5 pressure plate ones holding the springs. The large centre retention fastener is a nut. Maybe yours being an early model it has a bolt? It does specify a specific sequence for the shims and washers. I can post screenshots of the clutch section if that is not the manual you're using.
I can't see a bit of reverse rotation causing that sort of damage to the transmission.
I'm sorry I don't have better answers.
Glenn  #yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410 -- #yiv6698517410ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-mkp #yiv6698517410hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-mkp #yiv6698517410ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-mkp .yiv6698517410ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-mkp .yiv6698517410ad p {margin:0;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-mkp .yiv6698517410ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-sponsor #yiv6698517410ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-sponsor #yiv6698517410ygrp-lc #yiv6698517410hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv6698517410 #yiv6698517410ygrp-sponsor #yiv6698517410ygrp-lc .yiv6698517410ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Jason,

Sorry to hear of your issues. I will have to rescan the threads to get up
to speed. That is an interesting thought on flipping the front sprocket. I
closely inspected mine when I installed a new chain. And was unable to
locate any wear other than it having a smooth polished look. But this was
with only 9kmi on the clock. I quess I should have flipped it anyway. I
must say I'm a bit nervous about removing that nut.  Especially with all
these xmission oddities surfacing. I'm in total agreement on not turning
the engine backwards. I purposely did so when installing a new timing
chain. Just to see what happens and it is not a pretty sight. What method
did you use when removing the output shaft nut?

Best wishes,

Samuel
On Jun 25, 2017 1:03 PM, "Jason Hart [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Glenn
> My bad choice of words ... it is a nut not a bolt. And the only manual I
> have is the Triumph Factory version. If the other manuals tell a better
> story on what is significant on the shape of this nut ... please share.
>
> Best Regards
> Jason
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
> *To:* [hidden email]
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 24, 2017 4:09 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch
> issues
>
>
> "Hi Glenn,
> Another couple of pictures from the clutch slave master cylinder ... don't
> know if that black looking grease like substance is significant or not ...
>
> I'm also thinking of looking at the clutch plates again , one by one.
> Really would like to know the significance of that last washer as well as
> the retaining bolt shape .. flat side on the washer or reduced side on
> washer .. why is it not just a regular nut? How would that affect
> engagement of the gears?
>
> Still my fear is that the grinding sound maybe from the transmission.
> There are some holes on the side of the gear shift that I'm wondering if I
> could get an inspection camera inside to have a look ? I found one for $30
> on line that connects to a laptop PC. Might do a little research on this
> way to inspect what's going on inside before pulling out the engine
> (something that I really don't want to tackle unless absolutely sure is
> needed) .
>
> Really hope to find something I can correct before putting everything back
> together again . As for the turning of the engine backward ... I may have
> turned it more than just enough to remove the wood.  Still why would that
> cause a transmission issue?
>
> Thanks for all your help ...
>
> Jason"
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> That stuff on the slave cylinder piston is normal That is the dab of
> grease that is put there for the pushrod when it is assembled.
>
> I haven't had mine apart. I only have 106,000 kms, so hopefully good for a
> while yet. What manual are you working with? I have both the Factory one
> and either a Haynes or Clymer on the computer. The factory one doesn't
> mention any retaining bolts except for the 5 pressure plate ones holding
> the springs. The large centre retention fastener is a nut. Maybe yours
> being an early model it has a bolt? It does specify a specific sequence for
> the shims and washers. I can post screenshots of the clutch section if that
> is not the manual you're using.
>
> I can't see a bit of reverse rotation causing that sort of damage to the
> transmission.
>
> I'm sorry I don't have better answers.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [1 Attachment]

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Glenn,
I used the wrong words ... it is the main nut over that bevel washer with the orientation important (out side indication).that holds the clutch baskets in place over the spine. Why is it not flat on both sides?
Before tearing down the engine to get at the tranny ... I am hoping to identify the issue so that all this is not done for nothing. I found this inspection camera.  I'm hoping that the 5.5 mm is the widest part of the lens fits in the hole beside the gear shaft spindle. The hole appears to be at least twice that size ...  I've never used one and so I have no idea if it will get by everything in the way and give me side details...  see pic attached 

Does anyone have any experience with these cameras?  At $30 it seems cheap.
I have not even contacted this company yet about the inspection tool or know if it will work ... here is the link 1m Android USB Borescope Waterproof Inspection Camera 5.5mm Lens | other | Mississauga / Peel Region | Kijiji

|
|
|
| $ 30.00 |  |

 |

 |
|
|  |
1m Android USB Borescope Waterproof Inspection Camera 5.5mm Lens | other | ...
obd2tech.com 647-6378700 features: newest design android and pc based usb camera view and take photo, video and ... |  |

 |

 |


Best RegardsJason


   
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Impact air gun was the only way to get it off the first time ... 

      From: "Samuel Crider [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 2:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues
   
    Hi Jason,Sorry to hear of your issues. I will have to rescan the threads to get up to speed. That is an interesting thought on flipping the front sprocket. I closely inspected mine when I installed a new chain. And was unable to locate any wear other than it having a smooth polished look. But this was with only 9kmi on the clock. I quess I should have flipped it anyway. I must say I'm a bit nervous about removing that nut.  Especially with all these xmission oddities surfacing. I'm in total agreement on not turning the engine backwards. I purposely did so when installing a new timing chain. Just to see what happens and it is not a pretty sight. What method did you use when removing the output shaft nut?Best wishes,SamuelOn Jun 25, 2017 1:03 PM, "Jason Hart [hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Hi GlennMy bad choice of words ... it is a nut not a bolt. And the only manual I have is the Triumph Factory version. If the other manuals tell a better story on what is significant on the shape of this nut ... please share.
Best Regards Jason 

      From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email] >
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 4:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues
 
    "Hi Glenn,Another couple of pictures from the clutch slave master cylinder ... don't know if that black looking grease like substance is significant or not ... 
I'm also thinking of looking at the clutch plates again , one by one. Really would like to know the significance of that last washer as well as the retaining bolt shape .. flat side on the washer or reduced side on washer .. why is it not just a regular nut? How would that affect engagement of the gears?
Still my fear is that the grinding sound maybe from the transmission. There are some holes on the side of the gear shift that I'm wondering if I could get an inspection camera inside to have a look ? I found one for $30 on line that connects to a laptop PC. Might do a little research on this way to inspect what's going on inside before pulling out the engine (something that I really don't want to tackle unless absolutely sure is needed) .
Really hope to find something I can correct before putting everything back together again . As for the turning of the engine backward ... I may have turned it more than just enough to remove the wood.  Still why would that cause a transmission issue?
Thanks for all your help ...  
Jason"
Hi Jason,
That stuff on the slave cylinder piston is normal That is the dab of grease that is put there for the pushrod when it is assembled.
I haven't had mine apart. I only have 106,000 kms, so hopefully good for a while yet. What manual are you working with? I have both the Factory one and either a Haynes or Clymer on the computer. The factory one doesn't mention any retaining bolts except for the 5 pressure plate ones holding the springs. The large centre retention fastener is a nut. Maybe yours being an early model it has a bolt? It does specify a specific sequence for the shims and washers. I can post screenshots of the clutch section if that is not the manual you're using.
I can't see a bit of reverse rotation causing that sort of damage to the transmission.
I'm sorry I don't have better answers.
Glenn  

   


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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [3 Attachments]

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Jason,

 I'll attach the pages from the Haynes manual. They are not great quality scans, but there are useful pictures. I'm sure the centre nut should have the flat side to the engine (against the special washer) as you have it. It looks that way in the pictures,too. Double check in your mind's eye that you have the shims and washers in the right order.
 

 I don't have a modern (cheap Chinese) borescope, but for $30 certainly worth a shot. It may not be the quality of what we used to inspect the jet engines, but I would be surprised if it wasn't helpful.
 

 Did you have the engine at TDC #1 when reinstalling the clutch? That is mentioned in the steps of both manuals.
 

 Cheers,
 Glenn
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi Jason

I have a camera like that.  I found it easier to use with a tablet than my phone - just to get a big enough picture.

I used it to diagnose an internal cylinder problem on a car engine through the plug hole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFZb0GKsSTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFZb0GKsSTU

I also used it to inspect some plugs on a 900 I was having a hard time getting out.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGOPrnPzQhk&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGOPrnPzQhk&feature=youtu.be

Scott

---In [hidden email], <biker_jas@...> wrote :

 ...



 

 Does anyone have any experience with these cameras?  At $30 it seems cheap.
 

 I have not even contacted this company yet about the inspection tool or know if it will work ... here is the link 1m Android USB Borescope Waterproof Inspection Camera 5.5mm Lens | other | Mississauga / Peel Region | Kijiji http://www.kijiji.ca/v-tool-other/mississauga-peel-region/1m-android-usb-borescope-waterproof-inspection-camera-5-5mm-lens/1273159644?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true


 








 
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
I'm no expert but a couple of thoughts come to mind. Perhaps you have already eliminated them.

- What is the condition of the oil? Are metal particles evident? A grinding metal sound will be making particles somewhere. Hopefully not in the transmission.

- Might sound silly but, Is the shift linkage set properly? Is the toe shifter hitting something going down to first gear? Happened to me before.

- Bent or binding push rod or slave cylinder piston.

- Rotate the transmission by hand through neutral first and second gear with the clutch plates removed and resistance on the rear wheel, such as your hand. Go one step further and remove the sprocket isolating the rear wheel just keep the resistance on the transmission output shaft.
 
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues [1 Attachment]

Triumph Trophy mailing list
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Thanks for your input Glenn, 
I did have the engine at TDC when putting back the clutch the first time as well as re-assembly of the balancer. Upon further study it would appear the clutch sprocket position in relation to TDC is important for the second balancer on the 4 cylinder as it sets the position of that one. If not done right the engine would vibrate violently. On the triple the single balancer sits in front of the engine and has no relation to the clutch assembly or any of the other gears.  
On the three cylinder the one balancer is driven off one gear directly connected to one end of the crank shaft ... and so only important to have the engine at TDC when setting the one balancer in place along with the alignment of the two dots. My engine runs very smoothly - including at idle ..so I'm sure all is good with the position.
I  now see why many of you have more than one manual.The pics you sent are very helpful .. more detail than the Factory Triumph manual. At least I know I've put all the nuts and washers back in the correct position. The tool tip was new as well .. I bought the Triumph tool to lock the baskets;an expensive piece of polymer that cost me $100 .. but evenly interlocks the inner and out baskets (Spline of inner basket and slots of outer basket where tabs of friction plates are held in place). See pic  
So I'm back to suspecting something not right in the tranny .. I will see about getting that borescope and let you all know what I learn.

RegardsJason 


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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Thanks Scott .. 

      From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 12:36 PM
 Subject: Re: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues
   
    Hi Jason

I have a camera like that.  I found it easier to use with a tablet than my phone - just to get a big enough picture.

I used it to diagnose an internal cylinder problem on a car engine through the plug hole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFZb0GKsSTU

I also used it to inspect some plugs on a 900 I was having a hard time getting out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGOPrnPzQhk&feature=youtu.be

Scott

---In [hidden email], <biker_jas@...> wrote :

...
Does anyone have any experience with these cameras?  At $30 it seems cheap.
I have not even contacted this company yet about the inspection tool or know if it will work ... here is the link 1m Android USB Borescope Waterproof Inspection Camera 5.5mm Lens | other | Mississauga / Peel Region | Kijiji


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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
I'm no expert but here are a few thoughts. Maybe you have thought of them already.

- What is the condition of the oil? Are metal particles evident? A grinding metal sound will be making particles somewhere. Hopefully not in the transmission.

- Might sound silly but, Is the shift linkage set properly? Is the toe shifter hitting something going down to first gear? Happened to me before.

- Bent or binding push rod or slave cylinder piston.

- Rotate the transmission by hand through neutral first and second gear with the clutch plates removed and resistance on the rear wheel, such as your hand. Go one step further and remove the drive sprocket isolating the rear wheel just keep the resistance on the transmission output shaft.
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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
Thanks ... I have not tried the last one. But is a good time to try as I've removed the drive sprocket.   What result do you believe that will give me?  Is it to isolate the issue or maybe set things right? Jason      From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 9:33 AM
 Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues
   
    I'm no expert but here are a few thoughts. Maybe you have thought of them already.

- What is the condition of the oil? Are metal particles evident? A grinding metal sound will be making particles somewhere. Hopefully not in the transmission.

- Might sound silly but, Is the shift linkage set properly? Is the toe shifter hitting something going down to first gear? Happened to me before.

- Bent or binding push rod or slave cylinder piston.

- Rotate the transmission by hand through neutral first and second gear with the clutch plates removed and resistance on the rear wheel, such as your hand. Go one step further and remove the drive sprocket isolating the rear wheel just keep the resistance on the transmission output shaft.  #yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995 -- #yiv5271990995ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995ygrp-mkp #yiv5271990995hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995ygrp-mkp #yiv5271990995ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995ygrp-mkp .yiv5271990995ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995ygrp-mkp .yiv5271990995ad p {margin:0;}#yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995ygrp-mkp .yiv5271990995ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995ygrp-sponsor #yiv5271990995ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv5271990995 #yiv5271990995ygrp-sponsor #yiv5271990995ygrp-lc #yiv5271990995hd {margin:10px 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Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues

Triumph Trophy mailing list
In reply to this post by Triumph Trophy mailing list
Hi,I checked out where the shifter would go when shifting into first ... mmm I can see marks on the heat shield of the exhaust.  Maybe the linkage moved after I replaced the chain the last time?
Put back the shifter adjusted to not touch the heat shield to test out transmission with clutch plates removed as well as drive sprocket. Turning the inner basket anti-clockwise turns the drive sprocket in the opposite direction (anti-clockwise from that side to drive chain). I put it through all the gears up and down while hanging on to the drive spindle and turning the basket . Some clunking sounds as some gears are selected but all engaged.
One thing I noticed is that there is significant play before engagement when rotating the inner drum (can turn back and forth a fair amount without turning anything). Has anyone noticed this? 
Also measured all clutch plates and checked for warping of the plates as per the Triumph manual - all seems to be in spec.
I also measured the length of the clutch springs ... I can't find anything in the manual on the correct specs. Does anyone know what they should be ? I have 3 @ 42.81 mm and 1 @ 42.95 mm and the other one is 43.08 mm. Not sure this is significant and how accurate I can measure as it is hard to not put some pressure on the spring to take the measurement. Maybe mine are getting weak and could be cause for the slippage issue (Not the grinding in first gear - maybe because I was not fulling engaging?)      
As for the endoscope .. it is fussy on what devise it is connected to ... a neighbour has a samsung phone that was compatible with the free software mscope (this app gives the clearest pictures). A tablet would not work. His phone ran out of juice so only got a few pics from inside the tranny. He is coming back this weekend to help me take more. I will share my results.

My conclusion so far is I think I have 2 isolated issues ... one is clutch related and the other engagement of first gear. All help is appreciated.
Jason      From: "[hidden email] [TriumphTrophy]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 9:33 AM
 Subject: [TriumphTrophy] Re: 1994 Trident - Transmission / Clutch issues
   
    I'm no expert but here are a few thoughts. Maybe you have thought of them already.

- What is the condition of the oil? Are metal particles evident? A grinding metal sound will be making particles somewhere. Hopefully not in the transmission.

- Might sound silly but, Is the shift linkage set properly? Is the toe shifter hitting something going down to first gear? Happened to me before.

- Bent or binding push rod or slave cylinder piston.

- Rotate the transmission by hand through neutral first and second gear with the clutch plates removed and resistance on the rear wheel, such as your hand. Go one step further and remove the drive sprocket isolating the rear wheel just keep the resistance on the transmission output shaft.  #yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728 -- #yiv6788177728ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728ygrp-mkp #yiv6788177728hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728ygrp-mkp #yiv6788177728ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728ygrp-mkp .yiv6788177728ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728ygrp-mkp .yiv6788177728ad p {margin:0;}#yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728ygrp-mkp .yiv6788177728ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728ygrp-sponsor #yiv6788177728ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv6788177728 #yiv6788177728ygrp-sponsor #yiv6788177728ygrp-lc #yiv6788177728hd {margin:10px 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